Tertiary Talk
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posted by Vicky Jo at 2:58 AM
Thursday, June 15, 2006
About Me
- Name: Vicky Jo
- Location: Los Angeles, California, United States
I coach people to identify and develop their natural personality strengths in order to maximize their potential.
Please contact me to arrange a free strategy session -- I would be delighted to speak with you.
Previous Posts
- Psychic?
- Two Kinds of Bosses and Jerks
- The Time Machine
- Cognitive Dynamics
- The Self-Disclosure Facet
- A Simple Truth
- Fe Organizing Principles
- A Great Website
- Your Preferred Communication Style
- As Is or Organize?
23 Comments:
Bill, you say, --
I didn't know that thing you pull on is called string, or that the silver thing is called a bell, or that its color is called silver. --
and my jaw dropped. Only last night I was going through some Beebe notes, and he said once that DomFi's have a "naming problem."
Wow, didn't you capture that!?
I'm noticing that the criticism you're reacting to is probably manifesting from demonic introverted Thinking. Do you see that?
I'm even wondering whether you're "projecting" onto others around the "dumbchills" thing. They may have no problem with the categories (or the criticism), but your Shadow rises up and assumes your experience is their experience. (It "projects" it.)
What dya think?
(Speaking of spelling, do you go nuts trying to type in the characters for word verification? I can't believe how much I end up having to re-type the sequence.)
Here's what I make up: I make up that someone who prefers Thinking probably would believe they had a name for "string," and maybe wouldn't remember a time when they didn't.
Regardless, you get my point. "Fi has a naming problem" should hold meaning for you beyond this example.
I'm glad you can own the "projecting" around dumbchills. Projections can be so treacherous (and of course we all do it).
I can't remember if it's Beebe or who it was that talked compellingly about "taking back our projections." It can be a very powerful experience to do that.
I don't think I've seen a spellcheck facility on this blog (not that I would use it anyway). I'm talking about the little code you have to type into the "word verification" box every time you make a comment. I have to type them in too -- and it seems like I'm always getting it wrong. :-P
My turn to get the giggles. It sounds like you have a "naming problem" that you don't want to name as a naming problem, so it's a naming problem in its own right. Hee hee hee.
I'm glad you're pasting to the clipboard -- I've nearly lost a couple blog remarks myself but for having had the forethought to copy before publishing.
There's some conflation in this conversation -- the "feeling" you are describing is a "feeling-toned memory" -- and this is a manifestation of introverted Sensing. It's very common in the INFP pattern (of course).
The "naming problem" has to do with the tension of opposites between Thinking and Feeling. My guess is that you can tell me more about that than I can tell you. ??? ;-D
Certainly I imagine it showed up around your frustration of finding definitions of your best process that captured its aspects accurately. It's possible that "naming" it somehow diminishes it. (Lately I've likened it to Tao -- the more you try to define it, the more it shifts into something else.)
Yes, albeit through a different archetype.
That's the whole Beebe model, darling. We each experience the 8 cognitive processes through a different archetype.
As one of my self-discovery "packages," I take clients through a process of learning Beebe's model and doing the mapping.
I love where you're coming from with this -- this model is not about what's wrong with people but about what's right with them. (And that's one of the reasons I don't like the Enneagram model, because it seems to be about a person's "sins.")
However, in this case, I think Beebe is saying that it's something INFPs struggle with, not something that's a "flaw" per se. In the same respect, I suppose INTPs have feeling problems. And I've witnessed that. I've witnessed INTPs who struggle mightily with their personal values. My husband's previous wife had those preferences, and he has some real horror stories about her demonic behavior when it came to something about her personal values. Similarly, I've seen my ISTP dad "melt down" when his personal values were at risk. Mighty crazy.
I guess for INFJs we have a "natural order" problem. We struggle with the natural order of things (which is one of the ways Beebe defines introverted Sensing). My husband and I both make each other crazy around this process. And I can easilyimagine myself being "evil" with this process. I gotta write more about that on the site.
Your comments are a little disparate. Let's start with the "natural order of things." What would that look like? Well, if you go into a home, you have some sense of how things "should" be. The beds SHOULD be made, the dishes SHOULD be clean, you SHOULD be able to walk around and sit down comfortably. Clothes belong in drawers or closets, towels belong on towel racks, windows should have proper coverings. The stove, sink, and refrigerator should be co-located. Can you make up any more??
So "the natural order of things" is not about a sequence. You *might* say it encompasses "rules" for living life. "A stitch in time saves nine," "early to bed early to rise," you know lots of these I'm sure. This is all about the "natural order of things."
I was speaking to a woman last night who recently had a baby. Due to some traveling, the child's bedtime has been erratic. Now the parents have taken a stand that they are not going to be ridiculously rigid about this child, and she is going to be raised with flexibility in mind. However, what the mother has learned is that she can't just "make up stuff" about her baby's bedtime. If the baby's bedtime is erratic, then the baby's sleep pattern is erratic. And that translates to keeping mom and dad up half the night sometimes because of NOT having regular sleep habits.
As the mom was telling me about this, I began to suspect she was discovering "the natural order of things" the hard way -- that some habits are useful and important to have, and that you can't just be arbitrary all the time. If you do NOT obey "the natural order," you often end up regretting it. (If the dishes are not washed, there are consequences -- i.e., botulism.)
Are you getting the hang of this?
Now that's different from sequential memory (although both spring from the same process). The reason we associate sequential memory with this process is because the recall is a visceral one. Imagine you are in a bad car accident. As you know, time slows down during things like that, and every moment is an eternity. SO, if you "recall" the accident -- meaning you are re-experiencing the event as you are telling it -- chances are that you will tell the story *sequentially*, in the same exact order it happened. If you begin telling the story out of order, you aren't able to re-experience the event. (NLP knows this and that's why they have techniques to mess up the way you remember things, in order to shake off confining paradigms.)
Now sequential memory is not the only memory there is -- my memory tends to be a "mind's eye" kind of memory. When I lose my keys (for instance), I run pictures in my mind to try to "see" where I last had them. That's a different way of remembering. It's not "recalling," which would be re-living the experience of losing my car keys (I guess).
Is this helping?
(If you're an INFJ reading this, perhaps you can share with me some ways in which you manifest your introverted Thinking...)
I'm an artist. (Just to get that out of the way.) Whenever I experiment with a new medium, I play around with it first, and then I somehow end up figuring out the most effective and efficient way to use this medium so I can get the result I want when I want it. It always bothers me when I've mixed a new colour and I have no idea how I got there, because I forgot to write down the process somewhere. (I only ever have to write it once or twice and then I remember it.) It bothers me because I know I will later need that colour again, and I won't be able to make the same colour.
I also have a penchant for being extremely anal in checking and double checking my spelling and grammar before posting a comment in a forum thread or a blog or writing an e-mail. I know that one misspelled word or funny-sounding sentence can make or break what I'm trying to say. I know this, because whenever I read something misspelled the writer's credibility drops a little bit. (There is a different case in online chats. I can understand misspellings because one is typing so fast to keep up with the conversation.) So, I assume that's the way everyone else is. I also love it when I can explain what I mean in a concise manner. Unfortunately, there are some subjects that cannot be expressed concisely. Subjects where words and grammar fail me and I feel I must babble on indefinitely and dance around the subject as if I'm standing on eggshells, because I cannot quite say what I mean--the idea is too complex. It sounds really lame and messy when I do this. Those are situations where I get frustrated and curse the English language for its temporary lack of vocabulary.
On the other hand, INFJs can possess the memory of a sieve when it comes to their personal history. (This is not about memory per se; it's about a frame of reference to the past. Everybody claims to have a bad memory.)
This is true. Everything for me just sort of...runs together. I get memories confused for dreams and dreams confused with memories. I remember my childhood in the same way I remember a dream or a story or something that happened to someone else. This leads me to question which memories are mine and which are someone else's and which are stories I made up at some point. I have trouble recalling what I did the day before. Not because I have a bad memory--no, my memory is excellent, albeit very selective. Rather, it is because I don't put much value what I am doing in the present; and since I don't put much value in the mundane day-to-day things, I don't make the effort to remember such things well. If it is important, like an idea or something that felt sublime and powerful, I will definitely remember it!
I don't like the formal forms of genealogy. I get lost in the "second-cousin, thrice removed, from your father's cousin's side" and the "you are your great-grandmother's sister's mother's daughter." (Or some similar nonsense.) It is better if you tell me a story about this person so I know something about them rather than a name and a list of titles that all sound the same after a while. And while I like titles, those are just too complex and long.
On the other hand, INFJs can possess the memory of a sieve when it comes to their personal history.
Heh. I'm already rewriting for 'pithy' and I haven't even got the first sentence out...
Anyhow. I almost always type as INFJ in online tests -- have done for years -- but INFJ.com inspired enough INFP-ly doubt in me to send me over here for a more thorough investigation.
Looking through the other typological systems didn't really settle it for me, but after working through a bunch of your suggested ways of telling the difference, I got to feeling that INFJ did look pretty likely.
But if there was any doubt, the memory thing clinched it. My childhood is like a hunk of Swiss cheese. I can barely remember what happened at school or college -- lost friends, crushes, teachers, it's all a blur unless I really concentrate. I don't even really like trying to dredge that stuff up.
Everyone else always seems to have a much more vivid recall of past events. I've actually been quite concerned for the last year or two that there was some significant personal deficiency in me.
So -- as you can imagine -- I'm actually rather delighted to hear it's something of a type weakness :) It's not because I'm a vague, heartless sod after all! (Or, well, OK, if I am, it's a predisposition, not wilfulness *grin*). Yay! Thank you ;)
I'm glad this resonated with you, Tim! I recently took a class in Re-Evaluation Counseling, and every week I was invited to take an hour-long stroll through my memories and try to remember them with the emotions attached. It would take me nearly the whole hour just to start dropping down into any childhood memories. It's not just remembering -- it's the whole visceral experience getting "re-lived" that characterizes an Si consciousness.
I can get there, but it's like giving a cat a bath. I will bite, scratch, and claw to get out of it. I considered it a triumph every time I remembered something well enough to make me cry, and then of course I would feel "stuck" down there. Gaaaahh!
As an INFP with OCD, I find I can't seem to misspell anything. I've never had my sentences corrected by a third party, though I'm sure I'd feel mildly affronted if it ever happened. (I do go to such neurotic, pedantic lengths!)
However, if this comment evidences anything, while I'm very particular about my spelling, grammar, and syntax, I am hardly succinct. ;) Purple prose is actually my forte.
Hunh. I'm curious -- how is that serving you??
That's odd.. I'm pretty sure I'm INFP, no confusion between P/J for me, yet when I read this page I thought I sounded more J than P. I barely remember anything from my childhood either, probably a couple dozen experiences.. then again my childhood wasn't all that great either. Plus my mother is an ENTJ which means that I probably got a lot of J influence from her, and the fact that I'm Asian and was raised to be the straight-A student might do it too. I can be anal about a lot of things.. spelling, the way I arrange my sentences, words, dressing correctly, etc. Buuut even when I make plans I procrastinate 'til the last day.. I never make up my mind about anything.. when I talk/write everything is open ended and full of "probably's" and "perhaps" and "could be's". Also when I chat I never like to use periods, just ".." a lot.. I hate it when people overdo it though. And when I get to the end of whatever I'm talking about, I find that I've forgotten what I was talking about in the first place... like now. ^^;
Also I must've taken a dozen of these tests to figure out which type I really am, while my ISFJ GF is ready to throttle me for talking about it nonstop. Sometimes I can be more J than her haha.. And I get really irritated every time my results change - I went from INTP to ENFP to INFP and now somewhere between E/INFP (I hate that slash!) I am probably naturally ENFP, socialized into becoming some xNFx hybrid (I was CRAZY wild and happy as a kid.. but that's not how Asian females should be.. so I got a lot of beatings and fights from it).
Hmm that would explain why I'm so attracted to both xNFx types.. since they both end up being some opposite part of me. Although usually it's the INFJ's that'll make me go nuts ;)
I'm totally in agreement on the "memory sieve." I too had the thought that maybe something happened to me that I was blocking out! Glad to know not everyone remembers things from childhood vividly. It doesn't really interest me at all to remember - it's gone and over with, and I feel like a different person (because of course I have grown up)!
I also get really annoyed with misspellings. With obscure/long words I'm understanding, but not knowing the difference between "your" and "you're" is just not excusable in my view. Thank god my ISTJ boyfriend is totally fine with me correcting his word usage constantly. :-D
Okay, this is irritating. When it came to styles of communication, I associated more with INFP. But with this tertiary discussion I associate with everything INFJ and nothing INFP. I take photos mostly so I can remember what I've done lately. I've also been through exactly the same "was I abused because I can't remember" thing (interesting to hear that expressed!). I write long email messages and then cut out paragraphs that don't contribute towards a concise argument. It's extremely frustrating for me if I can't find the right word to exactly express what I'm trying to say. American vs British spelling annoys me - the fact that the language is in flux and organisation and organization are both acceptable spellings. But nothing irritates me as much as someone writing 'then' instead of 'than' (and nobody else seems to notice).
Someone on a list once wrote NDA instead of DNA, which is the sort of thing I immediately pick up on. I couldn't resist asking tongue-in-cheek if that was the new spelling of 'National Dyslexic's Association', but few people saw the funny side...
So how do you resolve apparent contradictions in your type?
>>How do you resolve apparent contradictions in your type?
Rudivs,
Two answers come to mind.
1) Work with a type facilitator to help you find your best-fit pattern. (I can do a lot more in person than I can do via a website, especially when it needs some updating.)
2) Study study study. Read and consider, read and consider. Self-discovery is an ongoing journey anyway. I've been at this for over ten years, and I still pay good money to attend type conferences and type workshops to develop my *own* learning on this topic. For me, it seems to be a lifetime commitment, and I invite you to make it one of yours.
Thanks for the detailed write up. I've tested INFJ, with the P and J pretty close percentage wise. I have had academic advisers tell me that they can see my P and J doing battle in me. "Tertiary Talk" helps me see the dominant J tendencies though. I am dyslexia, and I can see why my poor spelling has been especially anxiety provoking in light of your description. I am always glad for people who unabashedly correct my spelling without using it as a barometer to judge the quality of the concepts. I've always been the English teacher's favorite.
Another suggestion -- call it a hunch -- you might want to look at ENFP as a possible pattern as well.
I am an INFJ with a few select memories from infancy (or perhaps memories that were projected on my younger siblings as infants. Hm...). Also, from preschool age and on, I have memories of premonitions or of understanding things (people, motivations, courses of events) despite not having the requisite knowledge at the time. In general, I think that perhaps for an INFJ, the past has to be meaningful to be worth the time remembering. Meaningful in the sense that past clues add to the big picture of today, such as why people act the way they do, or why they did at the time. Nice pleasant moments are of course "nice", and granted, there is some nostalgia ranging toward the mystical/spiritual/elfish/archetypal/magical (any INFJs with me?) such as sensory experiences -- sunsets, the ocean, moving music, beloved family members, feeling-magical dreamworld memories, from a very young child (maybe even as an infant), but the memories are dynamic and quickly passing through my mind like a moving train, and are not regular time-share vacations on "Memory Lane."
I've always found my introverted sensing to be quite powerful, I have memories from before I started primary school, and while I can remember the outer world in good (though not perfect detail) I can remember with great clarity how I felt, where I was, who was there, how I got there, where I was going after that; they can be flashes or a memory that I can dwell on and live in for a while. The feelings I had then can often well up powerfully just as did then, it hard to describe, it's like being gripped by the memory. I can also identify with disliking change. I finish high school in about two months, and although everyone else is excited about this, I'm miserable. I was at a friend's 18th lately, and I was sitting, looking at all my friends together, and trying not to cry when I realised that this would all be ending soon. I'm also the go-to person for our genealogy in my immediate family. Nobody else seems to find the idea of our ancestors coming to Australia in the 1850s as interesting as I do.
This site has been really helpful in cementing that I'm an INFJ. I have a couple comments/questions about this particular page.
The rewriting things a ridiculous amount of times is so me. This is partly why even though I love making up novels, it's a hard process to actually write them. It will literally take me an hour to write one page in a spiral notebook. And half the page will be sentences crossed out. I'm also conscious of spelling/grammar errors (which makes me a good English tutor :). I would not ever just point an error out to someone when I'm not in the tutoring realm, but it bothers me. One thing I hate about math/science classes is that the teachers in those subjects often make lots of spelling/grammar errors in their notes and syllabuses, and it drives me crazy!
In a lot of day-to-day ways, my memory is like a sieve, and it's nice to get validation for that. When anyone asks me how I'm doing, I feel like the Jeopardy theme song starts playing. I often felt stupid, like, why does it take effort to know what I'm doing in my own life? But now I know it's a type thing, so that makes me feel better.
But when it comes to memories of my past, it's a different story. Maybe it's a 'devilish' Si thing, I don't know. (Can you please explain to me more about how Si acts in the 8th function, with lots of explanation and details? Thanks.) But I feel trapped in the past. Up until I was 12, I remember practically nothing. But then at that age, a bunch of horrible things happened in my life, and I just can't get over it. Let me explain too that my life is and has been for the past 8 or more years extremely stressful and difficult. It bothers me more than I can put into words that I am in the situation I am in, and I just can't strategize me way out of it no matter what effort I do. So my brain goes back to 'why am I here in this situation?'. Then I start thinking about bad decisions I made in the past, or about bad things that have happened to me that I think may have contributed to my bad situation. And this is something that happens several times a day for me. It's like I'm in a perpetual state of bad memories and feelings.
If this is the 8th Si, is there any way to get out of it?
I appreciate any help.
Thank you for the closer look at INFJ vs INFP.
Every time you talked about INFJ I could literally see my own reflection as if I was the one writing the article; it sounds so much like me it was sobering.
I always use to think there was something wrong with me because I can only remember the very dramatic events of my childhood and nothing in between, while my significant other can remember when he was 3 (I honestly thought he was full of it).
I really don't have a huge grasp on all the ins and outs of the types and what makes them a whole but I've done a million personality tests and keep coming up with INFJ and the descriptions seem to mirror me.
I'm a path of self-discovery or an early mid-life crisis of sorts.
Either way this article was very insightful and leaves me with more proof I am a INFJ; which means at least I'm not barking up the wrong tree.
Yes, I did go back and reread/correct/edit this little comment 3 times. :)
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