Thursday, June 15, 2006

Contrasting Fi and Fe

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13 Comments:

Blogger Vicky Jo said...

Bill --

Two thoughts show up for me. First of all, it sounds as though you may be noticing your own Shadowy Fe operating here. Yay for that!

The second thought is wondering whether you missed the part inside the dashes. It says (and you quoted it): easy to give -- OR WITHHOLD -- praise, warmth, and respect, etc., etc.

I've written in other places how ascribing ONLY warmth and caring to Feeling types is a mistake, so I wonder if you're getting misled by that stereotype. Some of the nastiest things ever done to me were done by Feeling types. And I am all too aware that I have a nasty side that can truly ROAR when I'm unhappy.

My guess is that simply by having introverted Feeling, you are probably provoking extraverted Feeling outbursts. Or, as John Beebe would likely say, until you become conscious around your own use of extraverted Feeling, you will probably continue to attract these kinds of run-ins as Fate.

August 24, 2006  
Blogger Gabe said...

..for instance, the 'onness with others' may operate manifest itself in ways the Fi types would refuse to act. Now, speaking from experience, it seems to me that introverted and extroverted feeling types have different rules about ranting. Speaking from experience with extraverted feeling friends, it seems like Fe types have a kind of 'amen-chorus' rule about listening to other people's complaints/rants/raves- that if someone is complaing about so-and-so, that you should agree with them as much as possible without completely loosing integrity: "yea, that frustrates me to" or any other kind of "I'm in the same boat as you, man" kind of thing.
While I can't confidantly say that all introverted feeling types don't do this, I can definately say that they show much more resistance, and that the most affirming thing one might say if they don't really agree with someone's rant would be somthing like, "I can see where you're coming from, BUT now I will, try to reverse your premise, poke holes in your perspective, point out that ___ didn't really commit a moral (values) crime so why-are-you-so-mad-at-them?" Those are, again extreme examples, but I can also say with a good deal of confidence that introverted feeling types actually don't mind that response and might even view it as an oportunity to define thier values.
Also, I don't think Fi types would like the amen-chorus thing, because that kind of 'onness with others' may seem contrived.
Is this true, or am I just talking about myself?
- you can use a nicer word for the 'amen-chorus' thing if you want.

October 10, 2007  
Blogger Vicky Jo said...

I actually love the "amen-chorus" thing -- it feels "right."

What I question is whether Fi types are open to challenges about disagreements? My understanding is that Fi tends to take a "my way or the highway" stance, so to challenge that seems foolhardy. What am I missing, since you can speak with some authority about this? (It also strikes me that you may be using some extraverted Thinking "logic" to shift their resistance, which seems interestingly charge-neutral.)

October 10, 2007  
Blogger Gabe said...

Y'know, I'm not as confidant about the second part of what I wrote. Can I describe Fe behavior better than Fi behavior? That feels pathetic.
I'll try again though.
If someone tells me "So today ____ was such a jerk to me", there is now Way that I can HONESTLY evaluate that if I don't know who _____ is. I will ask them to describe the event until I can locate within their story a GOOD REASON to be mad at _____. And if I do agree with them, I might say something like "yes, it sucks when people do that" . What I know is that reaction has bothered some Fe types, because they think by bringing up a value I made it all about me (even if I don’t mention myself).
-I should mention that I’m talking about fairly low-stakes stuff here.
For high-stakes stuff. I dunno. You've pointed out that one way introverted feeling types can be mean is by getting way out of hand about something they view as important. And I don't really have a solution to that, because I still waffle with that- "how important is changing___'s viewpoing?" And I don't really have an answer for that (unless you count a flow chart as an answer).
-I was/am using a LOT of extraverted thinking. However, what do you mean by charge neutral? If you mean ‘objective’ then I’m never charge-neutral.

October 11, 2007  
Blogger Vicky Jo said...

Can we ease up on the self-deprecation (degradation?). (My coaching self is sensitive that that, and I like to discourage it whenever possible.) Besides, it's nearly ALWAYS easier to see other people's "stuff" than it is our own. The good news is that we get to use that information to work on ourselves. ;-D

fyi: "charge-neutral" is a way of commenting so that it doesn't have any "sting" to it.

On that note, I've recently noticed on email lists that it sometimes seems the only way Feeling types can discuss conflict is by trading ad hominem attacks. =8-O

Not charge-neutral at all! :-(

October 13, 2007  
Blogger Gabe said...

-The self-deprecation was supposed to be for fun, however I do see how it sort-of made the tone of my e-mail defeatist (or something) and I didn't intent that.

-so charge neutral was supposed to be a compliment- Thank You.

-Do you know how long I spent on a fruitless search for the translations of those emoticons? (kidding)

So does 'amen chorus' still get to be an ad-hominem neutral comment?

-Are you saying that as one piece of individuation, developing tertiary or inferior thinking might can be a way to get beyond name calling?

October 13, 2007  
Blogger Vicky Jo said...

Gabe said...
>>-The self-deprecation was supposed to be for fun, however I do see how it sort-of made the tone of my e-mail defeatist (or something) and I didn't intend that. <<

Yeah, it doesn't become you. :-/
The way I think of it is like this: would you like it if your best friend made such remarks about you? If not, then don't make them about yourself. (It's a pretty simple rule of thumb.)

>>-so charge neutral was supposed to be a compliment- Thank You.<<

Uhhh.... it seems like this notion came up in the context that using Te *might* allow one to deliver a comment in a charge-neutral way....? But feel free to interpret it as a compliment and enjoy it!

>>-Do you know how long I spent on a fruitless search for the translations of those emoticons? (kidding)<<

I think sometimes my Fe gets emoticon-happy. (I get misinterpreted soooo often via email that I try to foolproof my comments with emoticons, sigh.)

>>So does 'amen chorus' still get to be an ad-hominem neutral comment?<<

I'm still okay with "amen chorus." I like it! Soooo.... both the extraverted judging processes have an aspect of "amen-chorus" to them: Te & Fe. (It amuses me to think of Te as "amen-chorus.")

>>-Are you saying that as one piece of individuation, developing tertiary or inferior thinking might can be a way to get beyond name calling?<<

I hadn't extrapolated that far, but I suppose that might be true....? I guess if all you have is a Feeling "stick," then the only "proper" response to a Thinking premise would be, "Jane, you ignorant slut," in lieu of a counter-argument. However, I don't wish to over-glorify Thinking at the expense of Feeling either. Let's just say that those who prefer Feeling are probably more challenged around online communications than those who prefer Thinking. Does that seem accurate?

October 15, 2007  
Blogger Gabe said...

Ok. I don't have an actual problem with emoticon use. "to fool-proof e-mails"- I suppose that alone would prove your point about feeling types.
Now even though I'm not an extraverted feeling type, I do usually intend a tone and I usually assume that people interpret that correctly (although obviously they don't, and I shouldn't expect them to). Maybe I should try emoticons. 8-)

October 17, 2007  
Blogger Vicky Jo said...

I have a USA Today clipping on my desk that says E-mails are 80% more likely to be misinterpreted than any other form of communication. =8-O

October 17, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Now it is I who shall weave a question.

Before that though, let me do some background detail, I think the question will flow better (and make more sense) that way.

In one of your previous videos you were speaking with an INFP, Pete was his name I believe. He had mentioned that he is always aware of what he is feeling, but not entirely aware of what others are feeling. You, on the other hand, said the exact opposite. You are aware of how others are feeling, but not entirely aware of your own feelings.

Now, my question is, is it possible for someone who is more dominately Fi to be slightly aware of what others are feeling? Primarily a feeling they have experienced many times before?

Let's take sorrow, or sadness for example. Let us say someone who more introverted feeling than extraverted feeling has experienced much sorrow throughout their life. Would it be possible for them to pick up on that emotion from someone else?

Let us also factor out body language. It would simply be like an aura around the person. As if you just know when something is bugging them even though they haven't quite given any clues to it.

------

P.S. Best of luck on your Webinar.

July 11, 2012  
Blogger Vicky Jo said...

As I relax and sink into that question, I notice some complexity coming my way. So try to follow this.

First of all, everyone can and does use all of the processes. So it is possible for anyone to be aware of others' feelings simply by accessing their extraverted Feeling. So there's that.

But there is something about introverted Feeling's ability to pick up on things too -- and I'm not thinking very clearly right now (I'm tired), so I can't remember if it's that they pick up on others' values...?

One of the best coaches I know has ISFP preferences. I took him a problem I was struggling with recently where I was angry at someone and felt betrayed because I trusted them and they shamed me. And he put his finger on my sense of shame right away. He picked up on it incredibly fast. Now, he wasn't "taking care of my feelings" (extraverted Feeling) -- because if he had, he would have given me a hug, or a squeeze, or said something cheering and sympathetic. He "held me" in my shame, and it was very healing.

I daresay the best therapists do this. They are able to "be with" the feeling without feeling an urge to DO something with it. I quote John Beebe, "extraverted Feeling is DOING something with other people's feelings." In contrast, introverted Feeling takes the stance, "Keep your hands off my feelings! They're mine, and I don't want anyone messing with them." Feelings are to be kept private on the inside (introverted attitude), while for Fe, feelings are out there in public to be moved and shifted, possibly through connection (extraverted attitude).

I think (going off memory here -- very dangerous) that empathy is a quality of feeling in general, not just extraverted Feeling. (I may retract this statement after I look in my resources and verify my facts. :-D) That's what I'm remembering right now in this tired moment.

Does this help?

-vjv :-)

July 12, 2012  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That helps astronomically, it simply leaves one question, or rather, one thing that requires clarification.

If an Fi is aware of others feeling but does not act upon them, is the same not said for someone who is Fe, only vice versa? They may be aware of their own feelings, but will not act on them?

What you say though is true, I am an Fi and I have rarely, if ever actually tried to do something about another's feelings. The only cases that I have envolved a very dear friend. Other than that, I simply try to make them aware of their own feelings so they can deal with them the way they see fit, or something like that. It's kind of difficult to explain...

Anyways, thanks for answering all my questions. It is really interesting to get another perspective on things.

July 12, 2012  
Blogger Vicky Jo said...

Thundersun, it's all in how we hold things differently. Fe privileges others' feelings; Fi privileges its own feelings. Fe is other-centered; Fi is self-centered (both of these should sound equally good and bad!).

It sometimes takes time for someone who prefers Fe to even figure out what they feel, or what their own values are.

It sometimes takes time for someone who prefers Fi to even figure out what others feel, or what their values are.

I never say never for either of them, because of course we all access all 8 forms of consciousness. It's about what you privilege, and the other one is naturally hidden in shadow.

When it is a preference, it often feels that one does not have the *right* to have one's own feelings, or one may assume the group's feelings are the same as one's own. It's about *collective* feeling (group values), not individual feeling (personal values) as Fi is.

-Vicky Jo

July 12, 2012  

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