Codependence
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posted by Vicky Jo at 3:07 AM
Thursday, June 15, 2006
About Me
- Name: Vicky Jo
- Location: Los Angeles, California, United States
I coach people to identify and develop their natural personality strengths in order to maximize their potential.
Please contact me to arrange a free strategy session -- I would be delighted to speak with you.
Previous Posts
- J/P Myths
- Task vs. Process
- Fi or Ni as the Favorite Function
- Statistical Bearing
- Type Watching
- Keeping Score
- Interaction Style Pattern
- Parts Talk
- Vulnerability
- Gandhi
23 Comments:
Bill wrote:
Can you understand why your statements like INFJ is people oriented, and INFP is self oriented seems to conflict with this?
Uhhhh.... I don't remember writing that anywhere, ever, and I'm a bit offended that you would ascribe such a statement to me. In the first place, both INFPs and INFJs possess the Idealist temperament, which means their primary operating principle is around relationships. That's true for both of them, although INFJs tend to focus more on time and task while INFPs focus more on people -- so I can't take ownership of that remark in any way.
Furthermore, all Idealists have a need for empathic relationships, and would be psychologically dead if they didn't have them. So this is a point in common for these two types. I'm utterly lost as to what I could have written that would cause you to think I said any such thing, and I'm reeling a bit from what you've said.
I confess to feeling bothered that you may be MIS-reading between the lines of what I have written.
Neither do I think studying personality tells anyone what's "realistic." I suspect we have a philosophic disparity there. For me, the study of psychological types is about our potential for wholeness and describes ways we can be so much more than our culture dictates. That's why I employ it as a coaching tool.
Further, at the risk of offending back, or even inciting a domFi riot, I'm going to tell you how the description of your behaviors around other people lands with me. I don't know how much of it comes from the stance of a type practitioner, and how much of it comes from being a life coach... but! From over here it sounds like you may be using extraverted iNtuiting to "second-guess" what other people are up to in order to engage in fairly elaborate "people pleasing." Unfortunately, people-pleasing is how Idealists tend to slip into being codependent.
As you may already know, I don't generally like to throw elaborate psychological or diagnostic terms around. It's all too easy to use them as ways of negatively labeling personality differences, and they become the subtle ways we put down people who aren't "like us." Nevertheless, it seems that every one of us has a propensity toward codependence through our auxiliary process (me included).
I have a page devoted specifically to codependence back on the website under the heading "Codependence." There are also two links from that page which I find useful (use the back button on your browser if you click these links):
Being Who You Are
AND
Putting Yourself First
As I read your remarks, what I hear in your intent (and this is based on more correspondence than simply the comment above) is I notice the use of extraverted iNtuiting to "second-guess" what others are thinking so you may twist yourself up into a pretzel pleasing them. It's further possible you are accessing extraverted Feeling through the archetype Beebe calls the "One-Dimensional Opposing Personality." This would be the Shadow of your Dominant Fi, and may be undermining you whenever you access this process. You may use it to do a number on yourself, limit yourself. (Did you grow up in a family where Fe was encouraged and Fi discouraged I wonder....?) The upshot being that while it's true we all can and do use all eight of the cognitive processes, there are no rules dictating that we will use them positively, appropriately, and skillfully. In fact, I've noticed that most of my clients are their own worst enemies, turning Shadow processes against themselves to their own detriment. And there are ample stories of people using the processes unethically, such as con men who use extraverted Feeling to win your confidence.
SO. There's a sticky wicket. I confess to wondering whether your use of the processes represent an admirable manifestation of a DomFi's universal craving for "harmony," or whether it's seriously dysfunctional in that it creates doubt about what the heck you stand for. It seems to me like the kind of behavior you describe could all too easily manifest as being a "bootlicker" -- someone who is "brown-nosing" -- a person who doesn't seem to have an inner moral compass, but is desperately at the mercy of what everybody else wants. Other denigrating terms include "yes man," "glad-hander," and "sycophant." A whole range of insulting expressions are available to describe characters who would seem to be the logical result of the behaviors you describe in your comment.
I'm also reminded of Byron Katie's saying there are three kinds of business: your business, their business, and God's business. The only one of those 3 you have any control over is your own business. Attempts to take control of the other kinds of business are foolhardy at best. It seems to me that the use of Ne you describe could be an attempt to get into others' business. It feels out of integrity somehow.
Now don't get me wrong. Ne is an amazing function. I went through my coaching training program with several who had INFP preferences, and I confess to feeling downright jealous of their astute use of Ne to support their clients in exploring new possibilities. This strikes me as a healthy use of Ne -- in contrast to an unhealthy, dysfunctional use of this process.
So there it is. I trust you will indulge my sincere and genuine wondering about what's going on here. I wish you would make the effort to correct my perceptions if they are entirely wrong so that I might better understand. And most of all, I welcome a healthy dialogue on this topic in order to help me reconcile what I'm hearing in these message with the model of psychological types.
Bill wrote: Can you understand why your statements like INFJ is people oriented, and INFP is self oriented seems to conflict with this?
I replied: Uhhhh.... I don't remember writing that anywhere, ever, and I'm a bit offended that you would ascribe such a statement to me.
Bill explains Ok, it's near the end of the forth paragraph of Stonehenge Test: "INFPs are SELF-centered, while INFJs are OTHER-centered. Neither stance is better -- both types would do well to develop a bit of the other's strength in this regard. But viva la difference!" I thought I knew what you meant by that statement, and I certainly didn't take offense from it.
Okay, I see how you might have reached that conclusion. Let me take another stab at it. Saying someone who is "other" centered is not the same as saying "people oriented." See, extraverted Feeling tries to take care of the feelings of other people. To do so, it must notice what other people are feeling, and give that experience primacy over what we are ourselves feeling. (Otherwise it would contaminate the purity of knowing what others experience, right?)
In contrast, saying someone is "Self" centered means that they are in touch with what's most important to themselves, above and beyond what other people are feeling.
Does that make it any clearer?
I wonder if it would make it any clearer if you were to read my more recent entries on Dancing, E/I, and Shakespeare. I say more about the differences between introverted and extraverted Feeling there.
Bill writes As for my tendency to try to justify the actions of a person who someone in the room is criticizing, the criticized person is never in the room, and never finds out unless the criticizer shares my coments with the criticized, so why would there be any brown nosing envolved? There is just something about someone accusing another when they may not have all of the facts that makes me feel uncomfortable because I too have been accused by folks who didn't have all of the facts. Is this making any sense, or do you still think I might have a loose screw?
It's not about having a "loose screw," Bill. I'm trying to connect with what you're up to in your use of this process. We can discuss this as peers, and not pretend I'm "diagnosing" you or anything. I don't have that authority nor permission.
Since your first comment is about your wife's preference for Fe, and how "she is really into judging people by what is appropriate," I wonder if I'm actually looking at the battle between introverted Feeling and extraverted Feeling here, and whether you are trying to "parent" your wife using extraverted iNtuition. In other words, to counter her "judgments," you are trying to trump by "interpreting" the behaviors and offering different "possibilities." The dynamnic isn't about the person under criticism, it's actually about the dynamic with your wife.
That's different.
And there's a good chance you're trying to "parent" each other, and you're both being "codependent" with each other around this dynamic.
I wrote Neither do I think studying personality tells anyone what's "realistic." I suspect we have a philosophic disparity there. For me, the study of psychological types is about our potential for wholeness and describes ways we can be so much more than our culture dictates. That's why I employ it as a coaching tool.
To which Bill says, Ok. That's fine. I use it as a point of departure for pattern reconition, and as a structure for organizing information that I take in about people.
I guess I'm a little lost about how you are "organizing." It seems like the model does the organizing for you.
I can tell you this: if you look to type for simple empirical evidence about how certain types use some functions and other types don't, you're in for a nasty surprise. All of us can and do use all 8 of the cognitive processes in various healthy and unhealthy ways, and it all turns into mud the more you try to pick it apart.
I actually think psychological type is about the worst way to figure out your best-fit type. Trying to use it to type others is even more fraught with error.
Bill says I appologize for any offense I have caused you. That wasn't my intension.
I didn't mean to snap at you, if that's how it came across. I confess I've had some negative experiences with extraverted iNtuiting types MISinterpreting what I write, and then ascribing me with negative motives. That's extremely uncomfortable to undergo, so I may have spoken more harshly than I intended to (a manifestation of my Opposing Personality, no doubt!).
I wrote It's not about having a "loose screw," Bill. I'm trying to connect with what you're up to in your use of this process. We can discuss this as peers, and not pretend I'm "diagnosing" you or anything. I don't have that authority nor permission.
Bill replied: I seem to be gifted at miscommunicating with you. Your responses feel like diagnostics to me.
I wonder if you are responding negatively to my introverted Thinking....?
And from my end, I am brought to mind of Dr. Beebe's saying The demonic introverted Thinking of the introverted Feeling type can subtly confuse an issue.
I sometimes think that's what's going on between us. It feels a little "messy" or something. I feel like I try to "clarify" something, and then you "muddy" it up. It feels like we're at cross purposes somehow.
Possibly your introverted Sensing is triggering a demonic response in me as well. =8-O
Bill writes: Ok. An example. A couple of years ago, my wife was complaining about her supervisor reminding her to take care of matters that she knew to do, and that she always takes care of on her own, and I suggested to her that perhaps he, the supervisor, is going through a list of steps required to close, in his head, and since you happen to be standing there, he reminds you while he is at it. And she evidently could visualize herself doing that because she said, "Ok, you might be right." Now if her supervisor had ever asked me why my wife's nose gets out of joint when he reminds her to take care of something, I likely would have told him something like... my wife holds herself to a very high standard, and takes pride in how she handles responsibility, and when you ask her if she has done something, to her you are reminding her to take care of something she fully intended to take care of on her own, but since you reminded her it will now look like she is doing it because you asked. Also she feels like saying, "just be patient I haven't forgotten it!"
And what shows up for me over here is that it's hard for me to "coach" an introverted Sensing memory. So I'm feeling frustrated right out of the gate.
What I then think is that your wife needs to be supported around standing up for herself with this Supervisor. A classic TA (Transactional Analysis) Victim / Persecutor / Rescuer Triangle has been created there -- and you apparently have an inflated sense of your influence on this situation.
Further, if I were your wife, I too would feel betrayed if you took "his side" against me. My mother did something similar to me once -- we were walking on the Paramount studio lot and we took a photograph. A security guard came over and told us that photos weren't allowed. I was resistant, and began asking him questions to see whether there were any other options, such as was it okay if no people were in the shot and stuff like that. And then my mom pipes up and tells me the guard doesn't want us taking pictures (as if I'm too stupid to figure that out!). To this day I'm still a bit peeved at my mother's interference -- and I'm doubtless overreacting to her use of introverted Sensing on me.
I had written: I actually think psychological type is about the worst way to figure out your best-fit type.
Bill replied Yes. I gave up on trying to figure myself out based upon psychological type about two years ago.
This puzzles me. If you "gave up," why are you wasting time on it....?
I also wrote: I guess I'm a little lost about how you are "organizing." It seems like the model does the organizing for you.
Bill then said: Exactly. Organization is not my forte, so I let the structure of the model organize for me.
From over here, it sounds as though you have a lot of resistance to this particular "organization" and are seeking subtle ways to disprove or neutralize it somehow. That's how it lands with me, anyway. I wonder whether that is DomFi, or InfTe or demonic Ti at work. Hmmmm...
I think this might be a bracing reply. I hope that's okay -- I believe conversation is the most illuminating when it is bracing, as long as there is mutual positive regard.
I also step into coaching somewhat. I realize I don't have your explicit permission to do that, so please forgive me if I violate any boundaries.
I wrote, What I then think is that your wife needs to be supported around standing up for herself with this Supervisor.
You responded: And she received that support. She had her reasons for not doing that on this issue, which made no sense to me, but I don't work there so I didn't push it. My wife has absolutely no trouble standing up for herself.
My point is that you seem to be "buffering" the two in their relationship with each other. That's why I said it sounds like the TA victim/persecutor/rescuer triangle was being created.
I then said, Further, if I were your wife, I too would feel betrayed if you took "his side" against me.
To which you say, Of course you would, but to me there were no sides involved. Her supervisor is a friend of ours, and I love my wife. She was responding to the behavior, and I was trying to go beyond the behavior to explore what might be motivating it.
From over here, it seems that you are subtly discounting your wife! She says it's black, and you claim it could be pink, red, or green! Sure, that's a helpful use of extraverted iNtuiting, but is it wanted? Did she ask for your help? Or did you just assume it was time to "parent" her? :-(
What I notice is how you are taking some things off the table -- now this is a type thing I've begun to notice in general with people. It's like you are taking extraverted Feeling off the table, discounting it, negating it, trying to remove its influence on the situation. You diminish it in favor of extraverted iNtuiting. Can you see that? And that's the ego trying to establish its primacy. (It also demonstrates a *preference*.) But over here, as a coach, I'm wondering what toll this kind of behavior takes on your relationship. It feels as if you are not honoring your wife's right to decide how she feels and make her own judgments.
Can you notice how you apparently want to be "right" here at the expense of your wife?
I had written, My mother did something similar to me once -- we were walking on the Paramount studio lot and we took a photograph. A security guard came over and told us that photos weren't allowed. I was resistant, and began asking him questions to see whether there were any other options, such as was it okay if no people were in the shot and stuff like that. And then my mom pipes up and tells me the guard doesn't want us taking pictures (as if I'm too stupid to figure that out!). To this day I'm still a bit peeved at my mother's interference
To which you said, To be honest, if I had been in your shoes, I would have done the same thing you did. Find out what the why is behind the rule to see if there is a way to accomplish your goal in a way that also accomplishes his. I had a similar experience in a museum, and the negotiation enabled me to take pictures as long as I didn't use flash.
I notice how you are "voting" on my behavior. Today you "vote" for me; tomorrow you might "vote" against me. It's subtly controlling, suggesting I need to please *your* conscience instead of my own.
You then said, On the other hand, if I look at this from your Mother's perspective, I could see myself becoming impatient with your attempt to negotiate, and I don't know what was behind her behavior. I just went back and reread your account. If that is the way she said it, and from what little I know about INFJ, that is likely to be exactly how she said it, I can't make it feel any other way than that she was being insensative to you.
So you might "vote" another way if you heard my mother's side of the story. Do you notice yourself doing that?
What about you is attached to being "right"? Can you find that side of yourself in these kinds of questions? Do you see how you might be dishonoring my own sense of being "right"?
Then you say, Ok. You want to know what is behind all of this. Well you see I have a hard time calling anyone crap, or calling anyone's behavior crap, which seems to be the same difference to many folks. And please don't misunderstand me, I don't think you are calling me or my attitudes crap.
And I'm trying to call you on something you are doing so reflexively that it isn't even conscious. I'm pointing at something you're up to that may inadvertently be causing damage you aren't even aware of. I want to bring another perspective into your awareness, and warn you away from being "right" about it. (Being "right" is so very dangerous.)
Is this learning that you're willing to take in right now? Because until you get conscious and own this "thing" you're doing, it will run you (instead of you running it).
I also wonder how you might respond to the question, "How do you value yourself?" Because it feels like there's a subtle selling-out here. I suspect you're bigger than you think you are, but you're playing small. How do you value yourself? Are you sneaking around in the dark, or are you owning your impact and the power you hold?
You write, I feel for people. I'm not talking about feeling their feelings, they are my feelings but they are what I would feel in their situation, so its as if I am experiencing it too. I used to have problems watching someone preform poorly, forget their words etc., because I would feel intensely embarrassed for them; so much so that I would blush and I wished that I could crawl under my seat and hide. I felt more embarressed for the performer than he felt for himself. I remember when I was a preschooler I disliked receiving presents that I didn't want because I felt so embarrassed for the giver. In Junior high my feelings would be almost as wounded from seeing another kid being bullied as when it happened to me. When a person criticized someone in my presence, I would feel for them. It felt like it could just as easily have been me, as the other person that they were griping about. Later when I managed to pull my self esteem out of the gutter, it became easier to disassociate my feelings from others' behavior. I no longer blush when watching someone perform poorly.
The INFJ list calls that sensation "dumbchills," and perhaps it's the introverted Feeling form of empathy.
Bill replied Yes. I gave up on trying to figure myself out based upon psychological type about two years ago.
To which Vicki Jo replied This puzzles me. If you "gave up," why are you wasting time on it....?
And you said, You're missing the point. I gave up on trying to figure myself out using psychological type. However I still think it is a good tool to help me understand people who are not like me, like for instance you. And I suppose I haven't totally given up yet. I've just been very frustrated.
I worry that in your frustration you may be distorting or mis-using it. (Not that such a thing would make you rare by any means, sigh....)
I had written, From over here, it sounds as though you have a lot of resistance to this particular "organization" and are seeking subtle ways to disprove or neutralize it somehow. That's how it lands with me, anyway.
And you say, That's interesting. I'm sorry to find out I'm coming across like that. It could be that you and I won't see eye to eye unless we are face to face, and perhaps not even then. I appologize again for the way I worded my first post. It was insensitive of me.
I appreciate your acknowledging how email is fraught with misunderstanding. Email presents a huge communication problem that people are finally beginning to realize. Nevertheless, I get in your reply that maybe you are feeling admonished or something. I don't need that -- it's not like I've been injured over here. I'm seeking understanding for why we talk past each other sometimes. Beebe's remark turned a light on for me, and I wonder whether you are willing to take any ownership of that....? Or perhaps that's so deep in your Shadow that you can't possibly even connect to it at this point in your life. (Not that I'm some kind of actualized saint who has the "goods" on you or anything! I'm so NOT. I have a big ugly shadow of my own to content with.)
I also believe there's a lot of value to be had by our engaging each other. If I were to make a request, it would be that you not drop into a sort of "hangdog" response when I challenge you. I think our interactions are much more useful when we both take 100% ownership of our character, beliefs, and intentions, and fully engage from that authentic space. I also think it's misguided to try to be completely "on the same page." That denies us our individuality, and creates a prison of sorts. There is no one "right" answer, and I'd love to see us release attachment to any such ego-driven need.
What dya think?
Hmm.... Is that Trickster extraverted Sensation I wonder? ;-D
I had written: From over here, it seems that you are subtly discounting your wife! She says it's black, and you claim it could be pink, red, or green! Sure, that's a helpful use of extraverted iNtuiting, but is it wanted? Did she ask for your help? Or did you just assume it was time to "parent" her? :-(
To which Bill rationalized: No she didn't actually ask, but she had been venting about the job every day after work for many weeks by that time. If your husband had been coming home complaining about some issue at work, every day for weeks, would you not wonder if all that venting my be some kind of call for help. Of course your communication style is Directing, where mine is informing. You would probably still expect your husband to actually ask before you would offer any suggestions.
Oooh, I notice I have a lot of stuff coming up for me.
1) First, your wife may be going through some stuff, and she may simply need to be heard. (AuxFe's often need to extravert their own feelings just to figure out for themSELVES what it is they're feeling. Sometimes we don't even realize we're upset until we hear ourselves say it aloud.) When somebody needs to be heard, the most helpful thing anyone can do is listen. (Listen and ask powerful questions if you're a coach, which I bet you could easily do if you were so inclined. It's a pretty natural stance for an INFP.)
2) This may be something your wife needed to process for her own individuation, and you may be getting in the way of that. You stunt someone's growth when you try to "fix" them. A cite here
If course, it's a myth that we can ever "fix" anyone anyway. At best we communicate the person is incapable of fixing themselves. A cite here
What I notice is that your wife may need some support around developing her own iNtuition, or her own Thinking facility. Powerful questions can help her grow and evolve much more effectively than if you try to do Thinking and Perceiving for her. (That's why powerful questions are helpful -- they invite people to do their own thinking.)
3) It disorients me that you brought my husband into the conversation. It feels a little as if you are trying to deflect the focus somewhat, and I find myself feeling defensive. It reminds me of the coaching client I had who I mistakenly told once about my saboteur so as to make him comfortable with his, and he kept bringing up MY saboteur inappropriately in the conversation when he didn't want to look at his own behaviors. It may be an innocent reference, but it puts me on guard nonetheless.
4) There are Informing and Directing ways to communicate that you have something to contribute. Directing might look like, "I have some thoughts on that. Would you like to hear them?" Informing might look like, "I have some thoughts about that if you'd like to hear them." If that's still too directing, simply saying, "I have some thoughts about that" is probably the most conservative Reporting.
5) It's rarely about needing or wanting my husband to ask my opinion/advice -- it's about my own self-management. What I notice is how his complaints trigger something in ME, and next thing I know, I've donned a Superman cape and have jumped into his story. I'm not neutral anymore, but have an opinion ready, like a loaded weapon. It's not his story any more -- it's MINE. It's all about me. (And so I have to ask myself, is this dialog serving him or ME? And is that what I want, or did I fall off purpose?)
I wrote, Beebe's remark turned a light on for me, and I wonder whether you are willing to take any ownership of that....? Or perhaps that's so deep in your Shadow that you can't possibly even connect to it at this point in your life.
To which Bill asked, Could you please refresh to my memory which Beebe remark you are referring to?
It's about 2 posts up the page. You can find it there.
I wrote, I notice how you are "voting" on my behavior. Today you "vote" for me; tomorrow you might "vote" against me. It's subtly controlling, suggesting I need to please *your* conscience instead of my own.
To which Bill remarked, I'm sorry. I can see where you might take it that way. It wasn't my intention. I was simply stating that I could see myself doing the same thing because that's my typical response in that situation. But it of course was beside the point I suppose.
I'd like you to notice how my story has become all about you. Have you noticed that?
I insisted, So you might "vote" another way if you heard my mother's side of the story. Do you notice yourself doing that? To which Bill replied, Yes I was aware I was doing that. Yes I said I could see myself becoming impatient with you if I were looking from her perspective. But that doesn't mean I was letting her off the hook for acting on it. She could still have stood there becoming more and more impatient while saying nothing, she could have tried to see the situation through your eyes. And I wasn't talking about if I heard your Mother's side. While I was reading your story I tried to look at the scenario through Your Mother's perspective to see if I could come up with a motivation that might explain her behavior, and ended up concluding that your Mother was probably more interested in how the scenario made her look, than how it made you feel. I wasn't voting for either of you. I was simply stating an opinion, which I suppose in this discussion would have been better off left out.
Everything in this discussion is ideal. It's exactly who you are. It's perfect!
Notice how it's all about you now? Notice how you're attached to "being right"?
I asked, What about you is attached to being "right"? Can you find that side of yourself in these kinds of questions? Do you see how you might be dishonoring my own sense of being "right"?
And Bill replied, As for dishonoring your own sense of being right, I'm not sure where I stand on that. If you are right then I should honor that, but I am not sure about your sense of being right if you are wrong. I don't think I am connecting with you on this.
Yes, we are not connected, because I refuse to let you be my moral center or substitute your perceptions for mine.
So do you see it? It's right there! Look!
It's that belief that there is One Right Perspective that seduces you into a sense of omniscience. Yuck! Can you see how pleasant that is to be around? Especially when I never even asked for your opinion? After all, you are not God.
And please don't back-pedal from this conversation and start apologizing and disowning the interaction. I really want you to own your part in this conversation. Until you own it, you'll never change it. Can you hang in here with this, even if it feels uncomfortable?
Bill reminisced, However on me being invested in being right, I think I know what is behind that. I grew up feeling like I could never be right. It was as if I could never really know something. Someone else always had it right and I had it wrong. I was somehow made to feel that I was usually wrong.
The first thing to know is that ALL your perceptions have value. Period. I want you to take that in and really sit with it. Really let that wash over you. ALL YOUR PERCEPTIONS HAVE VALUE. And you are entitled to have them. (It's what makes you a human being!)
Now, it's true that Society at large may not value your perceptions; your environment may not value your perceptions; your Family of Origin may dismiss your perceptions; but You Are Your Perceptions, and ALL YOUR PERCEPTIONS HAVE VALUE. I want you to know that at the very core of your being. Your unique perceptions make you who you are!
NOW, onto the sticky icky problem of "being right." That's a different matter altogether. When it comes to the dynamic of forcing your perceptions on other people and making them accept your perceptions as The Truth, we're up against the problem of attachment. (Remember, you didn't like when it was done to you, so take care not to do it to others, right?) The truth is, there will never be a time when everybody will line up and agree absolutely that your perception is Truth. It is Never Going To Happen, even when you soft-pedal them. And the harder you hold onto that attachment, the less effective you're going to be. If this is a goal for you -- being right for Everybody and knowing the One Truth -- the more you will be confronted with proof that you can't win. It's a no-win proposition. Are you tracking me here? It's a fool's errand. Even Dr. Beebe speaks eloquently on the topic of how "being certain one is right is very dangerous."
So here are some thoughts on codependence and "being right." It seems to hold some echoes of what you wrote, so there may be some value for you:
It is normal for relationships in this society to deteriorate into power struggles over who is right and who is wrong. That is because we grew up in a dysfunctional society that taught that it was shameful to be wrong. We got the message that our self-worth depends on not making mistakes, on being perfect - that it caused our parents great emotional pain (or they caused us great emotional or physical pain) when we made a mistake, when we were wrong.
Codependence is an emotional defense system that is set up to protect the wounded inner child within us from the shame of being exposed as unlovable and unworthy, as stupid and weak, as a loser and failure, as whatever it was that we got the message was the worst thing to be. We were taught to evaluate whether we had worth in comparison to others. Smarter than, prettier than, faster than, richer than, more successful than, thinner than, stronger than, etc., etc. In a codependent society the only way to feel good about self is to look down on someone else. So we learned to judge (just like our role models did) others in order to feel good about ourselves. Being "right" was one of the most important ways to know that we had worth.
When a codependent feels attacked - which is any time it seems as if someone is judging us - it can be with a look or a tone of voice or just that someone doesn't say something, let alone when someone actually says something to us that could be interpreted as meaning that we weren't doing something right - the choices we are faced with are to blame them or blame ourselves. Either they are right - in which case it proves that we are the stupid loser that the critical parent voice in our head tells us we are - or they are wrong in which case it is time to attack them and prove to them the error of their ways.
In most relationships where the people have been together for a few years they have already established entrenched battle lines around painful emotional scars where they push each others buttons. All one person has to do is use a certain tone of voice or have a certain look on their face and the other person pulls out and loads the big guns. One person is readying their answer in their head to what they "know" the other is going to say before the other even has a chance to say it. The battle begins and neither one of them actually listens to what the other is saying. They start pulling out their lists of past hurts to prove their point of how each other is "doing" horrible things to them. The battle is on to see who is right and who is wrong.
And that is not even the right question.
The type of questions we need to be asking are: "What button just got pushed?" "Why am I reacting so strongly to this?" "How old do I feel right now?" "In what way does what is happening feel like something that happened in my childhood?" "How does this remind me of the way my parents acted or treated me?"
We attract into our lives those people who will perfectly push our buttons for us. Who fit our particular issues exactly. When we are looking at life as a growth process then we can learn from these lessons. If both people in a relationship are willing to look at what is underneath the dynamics that are happening - then some magical, wonderful intimacy can result. As long as we are reacting unconsciously to the past, then we will blame and argue about who is right and who is wrong.
A relationship is a partnership, an alliance, not some game with winners and losers. When the interaction in a relationship becomes a power struggle about who is right and who is wrong then there are no winners.
[SNIP]
Bill says, If I tell you too much of this stuff, you're gonna conclude, "Oh Lord, I'm dealing with a basket case here."
Here's what I'm noticing over here: I notice you use a mixture of introverted Sensing memories and extraverted Thinking rationalizing to justify a need to "be right." You sound attached to a "victim" stance, which reveals an underlying fear that you have no genuine worth. Somewhere along the line, you don't believe you are worthy, and you seem to live out of an inauthentic Fe sometimes. It's really hard to be around, and I have a hunch it isn't serving you well. It doesn’t have integrity, and there's no space available when the ego runs the show this way. Things feel very claustrophobic. Is this really the perspective you want to hold about yourself?
What if you really stepped into knowing MY PERCEPTIONS HAVE VALUE -- whether or not you share them with anybody else?! What if you simply honor that understanding. Suppose you take full ownership of the power of that, and release trying to force them on anybody? Suppose you restrict yourself to sharing your views only when they are invited OR when it's too important *not* to share them (such as intervening in abuse, for instance). When you DO share your perceptions, imagine if you take full ownership of it and state upfront, "This is my perception" and not try to soft-pedal it or make it "The Truth"? What if you release attachments to "being right'?? What if you crawl down from the "hook" of being omniscient or owning the corner on "truth"? What would that behavior look like?
Are you willing to try it out??
I had written, I also wonder how you might respond to the question, "How do you value yourself?" Because it feels like there's a subtle selling-out here. I suspect you're bigger than you think you are, but you're playing small. How do you value yourself? Are you sneaking around in the dark, or are you owning your impact and the power you hold?
Bill justified, Of course there is a lot of fall out from adolescence, but I expect many folks go through that. It was helpful to discover the research of Ellain Aron, and spending time on HSP lists was very reassuring. But yes I think you might be onto something here.
I think I'm very onto something here. And, if I could, I would bully you into looking at it and really exploring it fully. This behavior doesn't serve you -- it diminishes you. It doesn't reflect the awesome personal power you often radiate. It's incongruent with the core of who you are. Here's the truth: you may doubt your innate worthiness, but I don't.
And -- just for the record -- I don't think I'm "right" either in what I'm suggesting in this message. I'm following my iNtuition and blurting what comes up for me. I'm simply reporting my experience of you. I might be completely be off-base, BUT MY PERCEPTION CONTINUES TO HAVE VALUE FOR ME. I honor this perception in myself, without being attached to it. If my perception does not serve you or is unwelcome, I expect you will dismiss and ignore it. I expect it! I don't have anything to prove here, and I freely acknowledge that I can't force you to adopt my opinion.
How can I support you stepping into fully owning who you are?
Ohhhhhh.... Calling Fe a "disease" isn't very positive, is it? Welcome to your Shadow! According to Dr. John Beebe, "any psychology that makes you right and others wrong isn't a very good psychology." Per John, you will need to discover your own Fe and integrate it fully into your personality before these annoyances will vanish -- not an easy task, but probably a necessary step since it's so distressful for you. That's some of what individuation is all about, and apparently the Universe is trying to get your attention around this process. Have you got any ideas of how to go about this, or aren't you ready yet?
>>...and you seem to live out of an inauthentic Fe sometimes.<<
>>You will have to draw me a picture, offer some examples, etc. I don't know yet what you are refering to.<<
I've said it before -- I feel like you pretend to care what other people are feeling, but I'm not sure that you really do. It seems to me that you use Fe inauthentically sometimes, and I've mentioned that repeatedly. I pointed you to several links on codependence, which I posted primarily as a result of email correspondence from YOU, but I have no sense that you've looked at them or even think they pertain to you. So I don't see much point in pursuing this line of discussion. Clearly we are not on the same page, and possibly never will be.
I am perplexed by what you use type for. It seems to me that it's been reduced to a tool for figuring out how other people suck or something. :-/
It reminds me of the client I did an MBTI feedback session with. His preferences came out for INFP, and the next thing I knew, he was making me "wrong" for all my behaviors. It seemed like he felt my interpretation gave him license to make the world over in his image, and I was the first victim.
Thank God that's not how type works.
>>I don't think I am trying to be right, just accepted, but I guess most folks are assuming I am trying to be right since you are, so either way it's pointless. <<
I was afraid you wouldn't own your own remarks in our conversation. I was concerned you would fall into the trap of attachment, and your response sadly makes me feel like that fear was justified.
If you can't admit you were trying to be "right," despite your own email to the contrary (which is posted right here publicly for all to see), then I don't see what more there is to be said. It feels to me like you are slanting the truth to fit your ego, because I don't know how else to explain the dishonesty.
I don't have any attachment to being "right," but since you're denying your own messages, I gotta wonder what's going on there.
My guess is that you're projecting your own need to be "right" onto me now.
And then you add a stinger to the end where you're a hapless victim, which is really yucky to encounter. It's so unpleasant that I really don't want to deal with it anymore. It's just not my problem.
Is this a Survival Game?
>>When you respond with challeges I assume you are misunderstanding so I explain it a different way to see if you will understood better, and you interpret that as further evidence that I am invested in being right. But...of course...you didn't ask for my opinion to begin with so WHO GIVES A RIP if you don't understand what I meant if you are also misreading my intention, and since intention is unwelcome anyway why go there?<<
I think I understand better than you think I do... but you're staying at the surface level while I'm tryng to dive deeper. It seems apparent you aren't willing to go there and look at what's behind your behaviors.
I said some time ago that this was starting to look less like a type discussion and more like a coaching session. Perhaps it needs to be a therapy session -- but I don't have those credentials, nor any interest in pursuing that line of inquiry with you.
I don't think you're owning your own intention. What do you want from me? Approval? Conformity? Validation? What kind of power are you granting me here?
>>Ohhhhhh.... Calling Fe a "disease" isn't very positive, is it?<<
>>You still seem to be misunderstanding. I wasn't trying to call Fe a disease. I was saying that it feels like most people expect me to be like them instead of allowing me to be myself, and that I am realizing from your complaint that I was taking Fe off the table, and that I didn't realize that I was doing that to you, that these folks probably were not aware that they were expecting me to be like them.<<
The fact that it seems to keep coming up in your life, and that it's causing you some grief, seems a clear indication that you better integrate this process into your life or it will keep causing you pain. That's how this universe works. There's no amount of fault-finding that's going to make it go away, any more than my finding fault with introverted Feeling is going to make it disappear. Those aren't the rules of the game.
>>Have you got any ideas of how to go about this,<<
>>No. Have you any suggestions?<<
You might try reading "Your Golden Shadow," by Miller, or Debbie Ford's book, "The Dark Side of the Light-Chasers." Perhaps they will give you some clues. Definitely some introspection is required, because you aren't likely to work it out in the external world as you seem to be trying to do.
>>or aren't you ready yet? <<
>>This feels kind of snide. How should I interpret your statement?<<
The statement is intended to convey compassion. My husband's auxiliary process is extraverted Thinking, and it's causing me all sorts of grief. I realize I need to integrate my own extraverted Thinking, but I'm still resisting it. I'm not ready to integrate it -- I'm still fighting.
That may or may not be true for you re Fe. Given the above fit, it would seem to me that you aren't ready, but perhaps I'm *misunderstanding*, since that seems to be the complaint you perpetually have about me.
(If I were to give you a dose of your own medicine, now I would say, "ogosh, I just can't win. I guess I'm destined never to be understood.)
Maybe that's true. Because over here it feels like there's some sneaky dishonesty going on. I don't feel like I can be straightforward. Things don't feel right to me, like I'm being trapped or controlled or something. I don't know what that is, but as long as it's there, I don't feel like I can authentically be myself and forthrightly name what I'm experiencing.
First let me say that I'm pretty uncomfortable with throwing labels around -- and for years I have been disquieted by the term "codependence." It was only when Beebe pointed out that we ALL have a propensity to be codependent around our auxiliary function that I became willing to look at my own codependence issues. AND I got to look at how my husband gets codependent with me using extraverted Thinking (and who would EVER think that Te could be codependent!?).
So, if I use the type *formula*, I get to look at how everyone tends to slip into codependence with their auxiliary. With your pattern, it would be extraverted iNtuiting. And I further get to notice that you seem to do a lot of what I'd term "people-pleasing." It's kinda yucky, feels like you're off balance and out of integrity. So I get to ask the question, "How does Bill use Ne codependently?" And look! There seems to be a connection between these dynamics and your use of Ne. I could be wrong, but it's what I'm noticing.
Now let's talk about "attachment. This term has been around for ages, and seems to be used about nearly everything. I have only become aware of my issues around attachment since I took coach training. I honestly didn't see it before then (and I'm probably still missing a lot of it now. I'm no saint!)
Anyway. Attachment. Attachment, it seems to me, could also be considered a "complex." It's a state of mind we get into. Joe Henderson writes,
"Most people live their complexes as if they were reality."
So the thing to notice is when we are dadgum certain something IS "reality." That's probably when we're in the space of attachment.
I can be UNattached to my perspectives by putting them out tentatively, before they solidify into judgment. I can say, "Over here I notice you are fond of humor. Is humor a defense for you?" (I am making this up, of course.) Now I'm not certain I'm "right" that humor is a defense, but it's something my iNtuition is picking up, so I'm sharing it to see whether it has value. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. It's no big deal. The only "fact" that can be agreed on is whether or not a joke got told. If a joke got told, I can get "attached" to noticing that reality, but interpreting the joke as a "defense" is definitely my perception. Getting attached to *that* idea can be a big problem, especially if I start trying to "sell" others on the idea.
What I've come to realize is that we all have our perceptions, and there is rarely One Right Way to see anything! And it is folly to try to get into that space. Everyone is allowed their own unique way of seeing the world. It's through negating other people's right to have their own perception that we negate who they are as human beings. (And this may be related to what you've noticed about the difference between Idealists and Rationals. Rationals maybe aren't as attached to their views as Idealists are? By virtue of sharing them, Rationals may be by definition "detached." Trust me, though, they've got some stuff they're attached to!)
For instance, I'm in a writer's group. So a writer brings in a script and we read it. Afterwards, people comment on what they heard. So one guy thinks it was funny. Another guy thinks it was dour. Who's right?!
They both are! They are merely reporting their perceptions and genuinely feeding it back to the writer to process.
The worst experiences I have had in the group is when somebody gets all "diplomatic" and tries to create the One Right Answer. That sucks! It's sooooo uncomfortable to be there when one person gets on a mission to find a middle ground where everybody agrees. It waters down the experience for the writer, and it limits our ability to be authentic and honest. Even the size of the room seems to diminish. Ultimately, it is the writer's job to decide what is right for them, for their script, independent of the opinions of the listeners.
So who is right? Everybody!
As I said before, ALL YOUR PERCEPTIONS HAVE VALUE. That doesn't change. The problem is when we become attached to our perceptions and decide We Are Right. That's when they cause us problems.
Here's an article by another life coach that may contribute some additional insights. I recommend you take her invitation and do the exercise she proposes.
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What would life be like if we had to suddenly give up our first name? Our home? Our photographs? Some of our friends? What if we could no longer experience the sun shining? Never again hear music playing?
We may consider some of the above-mentioned items as things we definitely would not want to alter or live without. Are they attachments? If attachment by definition means connection, affinity, loyalty, are we attached to them? And, if so, is there a problem when we are attached to things, ideas, and people? It is said that attachment causes suffering. Could that be true for you?
"The detachment of the wise man is not detachment from people or situations but from his ideas and attitudes about people or situations."
Despite our typical thinking, we do not have to ‘detach’ from anything because if we really look closely, we are not actually attached in the first place. It ‘feels’ as though we are, but in reality, we aren’t attached to anything. However, we ARE frequently attached to the ideas and thoughts and then we make the interpretation that we are attached to the actual item, person, or situation.
For twenty years I lived in my ‘dream’ house built in the 1800’s and extremely special and unique in many ways. Whenever I thought of my life, I only pictured it in that house. It was as if the house ‘belonged’ to me – not in the literal sense, which of course it did, but in the figurative sense. It was as though in some ways I was one with that house, thereby creating an exceptionally strong identification. The idea of living elsewhere seemed out of the question. It felt as though this is a part of who I am. Was there any truth to any of those feelings? Upon examination, I discovered that it was the identification with the house, not the house itself, that was really getting in the way of my moving out.
Fortunately, one day I was walking in a newly discovered neighborhood where the houses were rather close together. As I passed each house, I wondered who lived there and what life was like inside. I wasn’t curious about the house itself, but I was about the people inside. I thought about how each home housed a different family with different dynamics. It was then that I realized that the physical structure of the house made no difference. It was all about what went on INSIDE that mattered. I could then relate this to ‘my’ house and realized that as long as my family stayed together, it made no difference which roof, which physical structure housed us. It was all about the people, not the structure. That clinched my decision to move to a smaller, more suitable home and thereby, let go of the attachment.
So often, we are bound up with the ideas and attitudes we have towards something that we so closely identify with them. If, however, we could just imagine all of these ‘things’ as important or meaningful to us and realize they are not a part of who we really are, then if for some reason we had to, we could more easily let go of them.
INVITATION TO EXPERIMENT:
Off the top of your head, you can probably name at least 10 things that you believe you are ‘attached’ to – things that feel as though they belong to you and make up a part of who you are. After making such a list, examine each item and look at the idea, the attitude or the thinking that allows you to feel attached. Perhaps you can see that you are not really attached to these things and that your life would still go on without them. Imagine the suffering when you feel attached to something and then lose it versus the freedom when you can let go of the ideas that create the attachment.
If you feel inclined, please let me know if you decide to go ahead and try this experiment. I would love to hear about your experiences. Your feedback and comments have been most welcomed:-)
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Now this topic is different from the "oh poor me" thing I've seen you do. That's a different behavior we can take up at a different time if you like. ;-D
It sounds to me as if you are finding something of value in this exchange! Yay!
So some stuff shows up for me over here as a coach. Such as, "What's the cost of people-pleasing?" I wonder if you might take out a piece of paper and do a brutally honest cost/benefits analysis for yourself. Do you know how to do one of those? Obviously, the intended, *theoretical* payoff is harmony, but that's not what you're getting. So what if you look at that behavior and realistically assess what's happening?
Then, I wonder how would your life improve if you "allowed" everyone their own unique viewpoint? For instance, in the example I shared with my mother, what if it was "right" for me to be annoyed with the security guard and the situation, and it was "right" for my mother to simply want to obey? We both get to own our experience.
Do you know that old story about the blind men and the elephant? I think that's what it's trying to tell us -- we all have part of the story, and none of us can ever have the whole story. So honoring other people's perceptions is honoring who they are -- but we are in no way obligated to take on their perceptions as replacement for our own.
It can be transformative to notice someone else's perspective, and to honor and name it for them, even if you don't agree with it. So you might say, "I hear that you want to paint the kitchen blue. I understand that you find blue relaxing and peaceful. AND… I would like to paint the kitchen pink. Pink is a color that has always meant "eating" to me, and it would feel good to be surrounded by pink." Can you see how affirming such an exchange would be?
My coach program calls that "The Power of And..." They touch on it briefly in the first paragraph here.
And here's what I know: doing this work is going to show up in every part of your life. It's going to show up in your friendships, your family relations, your work environment -- everything that affects you. This has the potential of creating an enormous sea change in how you show up in the world if you don't back down from the challenge.
Over here, I notice it is already easier to dialogue with you. Jung says something about how we can't individuate until we separate from other people and have some recognition about where we "end" and they "begin." (Gotta find that quote... :-/) Anyway, already I notice in your language that you say, "This is what I see, compared to what you see." The space feels so much bigger! I have room to be me, and you have room to be you. It feels so much more spacious! And it feels like you take responsibility for YOU, so we're moving out of that victimy space as well. Can you feel the improvement?
Two other things, which may be too much to handle right now.
1) Many Idealists have identified "conflict" as being unbearable and something to avoid at all costs. We pay a price for that, and it robs us of our authenticity. So it's important to turn conflict on its head and begin looking at it as opportunity rather than failure. So the questions to ask yourself are, "What's good about conflict? What does conflict teach me? How does conflict help me grow?"
2) Your cite of the Biblical passage is Right On! Anytime we are focused on the speck in another's eye, it is distracting us from the board in our own. This touches on the work I have been doing lately with Beebe's Archetypes, and Shadow. I think it's very cool how you made this connection! The only thing is this: it's not about "fixing yourself first." You will never achieve that. What it IS about is how the outer world reflects the inner world. What chafes us in another is a flashing arrow that we need to look within. What's cool is how we get to evolve in the outer world and the inner world At The Same Time. The way it works is that you step up and be who you really are, and then, when something triggers you, you received a miraculous message from the universe. Now you get to go inside and look at what's triggered in you and work on that. At the same time, you keep evolving outwardly. You take responsibility for the triggering, appreciate that you are human, and keep moving forward. You keep working on the inner world and you keep working on the outer world. It's a spiral effort, this working inwardly and outwardly, ever-evolving, flowing, shifting, changing back on itself. They tell me the Celtic knot is a symbol of individuation, because it spirals around and around without a sequential progression. It's a process of continually unfolding.
How does this land? How may I continue to support your individuation?
I'm planning to move this discussion to the Codependent page, so if you come looking for it and it's vanished, follow the bouncing ball! ;-)
It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself. You may be "tolerant" of other viewpoints, but when you try to merge everything into One Right Answer, the right to hold unique perspectives is eliminated. As Thomas Crum says, Resolving conflict is rarely about who is right. It is about acknowledgment and appreciation of differences.
As I tried to explain in my example of the writer's group, all those juicy different opinions in the room represent the melting pot of experience -- every writer is trying to express their experience of the "elephant." It's a wonderful tapestry of experience. That experience gets diminished when somebody wants to play "right" game. Who's "right"? I've even see writers fall into the trap of people-pleasing by trying to re-write their script to please everyone. Can you guess that the result of that SUCKED? Other writers go cross-eyed because they hear conflicting perspectives and then get all hung up in trying to figure out who's "right."
C'mon. With dominant introverted Feeling, you probably know that the ONLY "right" answer to anything comes via the conscience. So expecting somebody "out there" to have the right to tell you what's "right" seems entirely violative to me of this pattern's preferences. :-(
We can establish overlapping of agreement, we can bridge differences, but to try to hone in on the "one right answer" seems to do nothing but cause damage.
If someone tells you they have the corner on a religious question, or they have the corner on the stem cell research debate, don't you run out of the room screaming? In the same way, whenever we ask somebody to forfeit their own sense of matters to adopt OUR sense of right and wrong, we are violating who they are most deeply as a person.
By the same token, why CAN'T both my mother and I have conflicting opinions and BOTH be right? What kind of lame rule wants to impose some kind of ideal middle ground? Now I employed this example deliberately because my mother's interference irritated me. So it's about me too (and proof that I'm no saint!). And the quandary is about how I can be with my mother's position (just as my mother's issue is probably about how to cope with MY position). There's also a slight codependent smell to the whole thing, given my mother was butting into something that technically wasn't her business. Mama needs to give her daughter space to work out her own issues in the big bad world and not try to "parent" her or wield authority when her little girl is working out her stuff. And that's a slightly different topic altogether methinks.
There's also a slight codependent smell to the whole thing, given my mother was butting into something that technically wasn't her business. Mama needs to give her daughter space to work out her own issues in the big bad world and not try to "parent" her or wield authority when her little girl is working out her stuff. And that's a slightly different topic altogether methinks.
Of course all this time I've been stuck way over here at the point where you got stepped on. This subject is a bit of a sore spot for me, or maybe it's an inverted offshoot of the victim attitude. I, in my opinion, seem to be gifted at inadvertantly stepping on other people's feelings when I just let myself flow, and knowing how much wounded feelings hurt, I get most pissed at myself when I discover I've done this to someone else, so I hold myself back; trying to pick and choose my words very carefully considering how the other person is likely to receive it.
Yes, you have a name for this too. It's called "people pleasing". But what alternative is there? Should I take the attitude that another's wounded feelings are their own responsibility? I've started to do that some, but I have to strike a balance somewhere, or else I'm concerned I'll be perceived as just be rude.
Here's what I know: you can't take responsibility for everybody else's feelings. Most of the time, their experience isn't even about you. At the same time, I think you have to "own your impact." There's some kind of way of being in the world that allows you to be bold and forthright and yet not step on others. And I can't possibly say what that looks like for you, especially since your preferences are different from mine. (I would naturally be sensitive to different things than you.)
My temptation is to suggest you get a coach to figure it out for yourself! ;-D
This is not to overlook the coaching I've been doing with you all along, but you may need somebody to step into the details of a situation with you and really explore the different perspectives. Sometimes it's just too hard to work things out in an abstract way.
The obvious question is to ask, "How can you be yourself AND not step on other people's feelings?" OR, "How can you be yourself, and IF you step on someone's feelings, how do you clean up the mess?" OR "What are you up to that you keep stepping on others' feelings?" Those seem like a pretty good series of powerful coaching questions that I bet you can figure out some great answers to.
Certainly there's a piece in here about being willing to clean up our messes. It's about working out conflict instead of running away or simply ignoring them. Or instead of trying to "fix" them, which never works. There's a way to deal with conflict that doesn't include people-pleasing or selling-out on who we are or playing small so as not to offend anybody. And that's the place I imagine you would benefit from developing. But I can't give you a pill or a formula or a magic solution.
When I've seen things like this during my coach training, it looked like this. "I notice you seemed to have a bad reaction to me. What was that about?" [person doesn't like the way they sneezed] "I see. What is about my sneezing that doesn't work for you?" [it disrupts the meeting] "I understand. Well, I can't really avoid sneezing -- I am human, you know. Is there a way for you to be with my sneezing, or is the alternative to stop attending meetings, or how can we work this out?" [it either works or it doesn't]
In this way, you don't promise never to sneeze again, and you don't get all apologize-y for something idiotic.
As far as the conflict with my mother goes, it's probably my responsibility to sit down with my mother and let her know that I'd rather handle conversations with security guards by myself, and if I need her support I'll ask. Not for the purpose of hurting her feelings back, but to establish some healthy boundaries with her.
In other words, you Work It Out. Work it out without selling out.
Two good books on that topic:
"Crucial Conversations" and
"Crucial Confrontations."
The hardest part for introverts methinks is speaking authentically and asserting ourselves in a healthy way without getting aggressive. So there's something here about naming and owning our own experience. If we don't voice and take responsibility for our own experience, we aren't really showing up in the world. And then what are we.....?
I also think maybe there's something here about owning our own feelings, even when they make us uncomfortable, and sharing them (horrors!). In the case of the INFP pattern, maybe it's so easy to own others' feelings that you don't realize when they're feeling their own, or maybe it's easy to take responsibility for others' feelings, but seems like too much work to take responsibility for your own...? I dunno, but I also don't want to get into analysis or act like you're broken. I have to be extremely careful not to suggest you Be Like Me -- that's surely the worst thing I can do.
(an INFP)
I have to state right off that I couldn't read the entire exchange here; I read at least 3/4 of it, and then couldn't read any more.
So if some resolution which applies to what I am about to opine occurred, rendering it unnecessary, apologies.
That said:
Bill, not to make things even worse for you, but I think you caved- (to Vicky Jo)(and not in the way she says, but to her 'rightness' altogether)
Vicky Jo, I sincerely feel you have some issues with Fi. Not Si, and not Te- at least, not in this scenario.
I think you (V.J.) were totally demonizing Bill, or at least his motivations, stemming from healthy and normal Fi. I really do.
I can tell you that I have been criticized by an E/ISFJ (not quite sure which) for the exact same things as Bill describes, 'not being on their side' and 'always defending the other guy.'
And the 'ingenuine' Fe you think you're talking about-
I'm sorry, but that too is healthy, genuine Fi.
Bill, I don't think you should say you're sorry for anything; don't let her pushing and confidence (even if in error) make you navel-gaze at your flaws and blindness (unless you do find something true to look at, in there)...
But instead, I'm sorry, Vicky Jo I think the coach this time should sit back and check out her relationship to her Witch/Senex point.
Anyway, I can chime in with Bill as an INFP that I understand his motivations to be true, when he says that he does desire peace for everyone, overall- and no, it's not about him. Well, it's about some of his feelings, yes- he's feeling out of sorts with empathic discomfort for the situation that the other person is in. But the fact is, the other person IS in an uncomfortable situation.
Now I have no idea how you can construe someone's empathetic, genuine desire to help another person explore all or at least more of the possibilities about their disturbing situation, in order to perhaps step over it, or get around it...or at least to make themselves feel better...as a desire to 'parent,' or 'control,' or as codependency, or anything like those things.
And you are not the arbiter of what, between Bill and his spouse, constitutes a healthy interaction. Every couple has their 'code,' and you don't know whether, after years together, they have come to understand what the other wants when he or she does X, Y, or Z.
Yet you are freely projecting into their relationship.
I am freely saying what I see and think, just as I've seen you've done, with Bill. Therefore I hope you will not ascribe any motives to my doing so which you would not at the same time own in your own replies.
Things like "Bill rationalizes..." and other such headings, in your post quotes, are pot-shots. They're demeaning.
You must realize: You could be wrong.
And unless I suffer from all the same maladies as Bill, as a fellow INFP, you are.
Because everything he's said he's done, I have done. And I concur with his stated motives for doing so, and that they're pure.
I'm sorry, V.J.; you've really demonized the healthy use of an innocent function, that you don't understand, and feel suspicious of.
Make it a mission to not just mentally understand, but understand from a heart place, Fi.
Thank you
Vicky Jo said to Bill...
"...over here it feels like there's some sneaky dishonesty going on. I don't feel like I can be straightforward. Things don't feel right to me, like I'm being trapped or controlled or something."
From your [V.J.'s] other website, on INFJs and the archetypes:
"Sixth position Witch/Senex: introverted Feeling for the INFJ
What does this mean? This is the bad mother/father that criticizes, condemns, immobilizes, or demoralizes. It finds fault with everyone, making everyone seem like fakes or untrustworthy. It can be the basis of self-attacks commonly experienced in depression. This archetype is anti-life, since it cripples soul and spirit. The appearance of this function forces one to be creative, to outwit some challenge by finding a way around it.
What about you? Do you react negatively to introverted Feeling? I know I struggle with it. This is a function that causes me a lot of problems (not least the fact that it's my husband's Tertiary). While I desperately need it to sort out my values and to provide an internal compass, I also consider introverted Feeling "selfish," irrational, and unreasonable at times, better dismissed and ignored."
I almost didn't publish this comment, because it was taking on the smell of a "witch hunt." It seemed a bit low to visit my other website and pull cites from there to "make a case" about me, as if I have some ulterior motive to eradicate Fi.
It's interesting to be on the receiving end of Judgment (and Fi/Fe are so clearly judging processes) rather than Perception. If I didn't get it before, I get it now why my coach training so much emphasized that having judgment about our clients and being attached to those judgments can create such a discounting experience. All that remains now is to throw stones at each other, because everything else seems pointless. Thanks for the learning!
I don't think I've ever pretended that Fi is a process that's easy for me to be with... nevertheless, I was being as straightforward with Bill as I know how to be about the impact he was having on me. It felt like he was trying to be *my* conscience or something, and I resented how that felt -- especially in the anecdote I shared about my mother. I'm not about making him "right" or "wrong," but reflecting back to him what impact he was having on me. Then I leave it to him to see if that's how he wants to show up or not -- it's entirely up to him. (I also need to reiterate that my comments were somewhat based on a lengthier email relationship than just what appears here.)
Only Bill can say whether or not I was misjudging Bill -- and I hope he will! What I noticed in our exchange was an admission that sometimes his particular use of Fi did NOT always serve him. It also seemed to be showing up as undeveloped Fe at times -- so I don't think this is all about a *healthy* use of Fi. Not that I care what labels get stuck on things at the end of the day -- all I knew is that I like Bill a lot, but sometimes I would get yucky feelings from our exchanges. Letting him know how I experienced him is the most honest (coach-like) thing I know to do, and is based on the Johari Window (meaning, I framed it as a developmental opportunity, if he considered it an area worth looking more closely at).
I realize I may not have always done that the most gracefully, but my intentions were honest. (I was aware that plenty of INF_'s would be reading this exchange and reaching their own conclusions, so my Fe was on high alert about keeping the dialogue as bias-free and authentic as possible.)
Truthfully, the whole thing leaves me wondering what *you* might be projecting onto the dialog. It seems to me that this conversation is about YOU in some way, and not just the candid exchange Bill and I were having. Certainly I notice you couldn't even finish reading the entire exchange before you rushed to judgment and made me a bad guy. Maybe you would like to talk about that, instead of hiding behind Bill.
So how is this exchange about you, hmmm? What about this conversation can't you be with?
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. I'll meet you there.
--Rumi
Okay, another great conversation that's got me thinking.
So riddle me this, Joker -- if it's interpreted as "attacking" whenever something gets said, how can we ever speak our truth? Must we always walk on eggshells?
In the situation with my mother (this is not baggage, this is an example, by the way), the energy you seemed to bring to the conversation was one of "I'll be your conscience for you!" And that didn't land on me very well. It felt like you assumed my conscience wasn't up to the job or something.
(It makes me wonder whether I do something similar with my heroic Ni, something like "I'll see the future for you!" or something. And that leaves people feeling like, "I'll envision my own future, thankyouverymuch.")
I'm wondering if we're poking our collective noses into other people's business where it doesn't belong...? Because there's an air of what I call "codependence" about it. There's a smug feeling of "I know what's best for you."
So "anonymous" felt he had to jump in and defend you (Bill) and protect you against the Big Bad Vicky Jo. And over here I'm feeling like, "hey come on -- Bill's no helpless fool. He can fight his own battles. He's a healthy, capable adult." So now I'm feeling punished and outnumbered for trying to authentically let you know something rubbed ME the wrong way. Not to make you wrong, but to support your growth by sharing authentic feedback about how something landed on me. I was letting you know what impact you were having.
So what's an effective way to have a challenging conversation of that nature? How do I say "Back off and don't be my conscience" without "injuring" you? AND how do I say, "You do this thing and I have yucky energy around it, as if you're over-apologizing and it sounds demeaning and doesn't become you." How do I say that without it being an "attack"? (Is it just that a blog doesn't support such honesty and it comes off as brutal instead?)
Is this an irresolvable impasse, because your Heroic process is my Witch, and vice versa?? So we're *incapable* of seeing eye-to-eye? (Hm, experience with several INFP coaching clients doesn't lead me to think that's accurate.)
My coach training would lead me to believe there's a way to make it work. And I for one would love to find it. Because I think we all ought to be able to own our truth, not walk on eggshells, and support one another without selling ourselves down the river.
What am I not seeing here?
Help?
Bill --
I *love* where you're looking. And from over here, I got chills down my spine -- like there was something really authentic in what you were noticing. I can't find the words for it -- noble, perhaps? You seemed very much in "your power." It took my breath away for a moment. And I got that you really understood this wasn't about "voting." Voting doesn't help you get to the greater truth.
Also, THANK YOU for giving me permission to let you know how something lands with me.
I think my reaction was around the way you said, I expect he read this exchange, and felt attacked by you too. That made it sound as though YOU felt attacked. And if you DID feel attacked, this is where you get to tell ME that I gave you a yucky feeling. (It's a two-way street y'know.) I have plenty of development to do on my own over here. ;-D
This is one of those things that makes my coach self show up in a big way. I really can't be with that "resigned victim" energy. It just doesn't play.
It has the feel of a whiny Eeyore complaining, "It's always been this way, it's always gonna be this way, might as well get used to it." It sucks every bit of life out of the conversation.
Can you imagine matters being any different? Can you imagine life being some other way??
Be careful. If you see her "wearing it like a banner," chances are you've got some banners too! It's like that saying, "If you can spot it, you've got it!"
Some good coaching questions, if the opportunity seems appropriate:
1) How is it serving you to hold on to those ideas?
2) How do you react when you think those thoughts?
3) What would it be like if you didn't believe they were true?
4) What allows you as an adult to still let these limitations and handicaps run your life?
(Over here, I'm wishing you'd ask the same questions of yourself regarding "feeling broken." What's the payoff for thinking that?)
Actually, I am. Perhaps the person doesn't have the *identical* behavior, or it isn't as extreme or as "symptomatic," but that doesn't mean they don't use some version of it themself.
In fact, I think I've noticed you (Bill) use some version of "being handicapped" in various exchanges to excuse certain behaviors. So it looks like that behavior would be very familiar to you.
As far as this person using their "handicap" goes, I wonder what the payoff is for using it. Is there a temperament value that gets honored? Does it validate her needs for membership, belonging? Does it validate needs for authenticity and meaning? Does it validate her knowledge & mastery (doesn't sound like it over here!)? Does it validate a need to make an impact and experience freedom? Which one of those sounds like a good fit to you?
Is there an apparent "helplessness," which others are codependently encouraging? (Sort of like the alcoholic who needs to hit bottom before they'll change.)
How might you be interfering with her experiencing the natural consequences of her own actions (or lack of action)?
Where do boundaries and perhaps "tough love" need to be demonstrated? Hmmm?
How would you want people to work with you around *your* handicaps that's loving but firm?
What I notice is that you're making a broad, sweeping generalization here.
According to the Temperament model, "it takes a special talent to go crazy a certain way." So I would want to dig into type reasons why people get goofy. "Survival Games" is a good study of this. Each of the interaction style patterns has different ways of "flipping out" as well. So there are probably 16 specific ways to be crazy. Right?
Look at "The Wizard of Oz." Each of those characters was "crazy" to overcome a particular "defect." (Stretch your imagination a bit so you can follow me.) Can you see how that "defect" is related to each character's core temperament needs? (Have I done a "Wizard of Oz" analysis here? I can't remember!)
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