Debate
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posted by Vicky Jo at 3:17 AM
Thursday, June 15, 2006
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- Name: Vicky Jo
- Location: Los Angeles, California, United States
I coach people to identify and develop their natural personality strengths in order to maximize their potential.
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13 Comments:
An INFP can NEVER lose a debate. He either convinces the opponent, or goes home with valuable insights. It gives them a (psychological) headstart.
Bruno, INFP
how do you think this effects relationships between INFPs and INFJs when a INFP likes to debate? Is there a way to work things out and have the two types come to a better understanding of each other? Also, I am curious about the quasi-identical phenomena and how relationships between these types can experience or perceive the other as changed from N to S or F to T. Are these ideas related?
It seems to me that these questions are situational, and would differ from person to person. I do think these types tend to work through their issues for the sake of relationship, which is their highest shared value. In terms of your other question about perceived change, you'll have to say more because I don't understand the question (and I'm usually not into doing all the S F T J alphabet soup stuff :-/).
Well, I enjoy a bit of a debate. Provided I'm allowed plenty of preparation for whatever the opponent might say. Formal debates are good, since they have plenty of ground rules and what you have to say is mostly prepared before hand. I'm very poor at thinking logically on my feet. It's like I know there's a flaw, but I don't know how to tell you about that flaw or how to fix it. Plus, I really don't care to persuade someone to think the same way as me. I will definitely persuade them to think about the moral ramifications and try to get them to agree that they are true and valid and should probably be followed (or at least be given some serious consideration). But I won't try to change their logic because it feels like an impossible task.
Now, despite all that...I will discuss on my feet. If you can make a debate sound more like a discussion (by which I mean, we are sharing ideas rather than trying to tear each other's ideas apart and see who is right), then I'm all for it. There is something that feels really...offensive when I think about someone tearing my ideas and logic apart. It's like someone tearing me apart, because I invest a tiny bit of myself in my thoughts. So, whenever it's apparent there's a debate about to occur, I typically throw in the towel.
-Steph INFJ
Me too!
As an infj, I usually feel like debating is like interrogating (and the abusive police interrogator is my archetype for extraverted thinking). There's a difference between arguing for what's right and just twisting someones words. So to revise your statement, INFJs cannot debate...without getting pretty pissed off. A few weeks ago, someone came to speak at my school, and I dissagreed with everything he said, but I didn't have the guts to take him on during the meeting with the whole school as an audience. But I did hear that their would be a discussion with the speaker in another room following the meeting. So I waited for that, and took time to craft exactly what I would say to him. I did say what I had thought up, and I didn't screw it up. Of course, he took it and twisted my words. And part way through the meeting I accused him of asking 'manipulative rhetorical questions'. Man,I was angry. I still don't care if he technically 'won' the arguement, because I feel that the point I made was perfectly valid, and he never fully adressed it without twisting it first.
(the reason there isn't much detail here because it was about politics)
(thank you for sparing us the details and not dragging us into politics!) ;-)
(I also love your archetypal example of extraverted Thinking -- I often envision courtrooms and encountering the prosecuting attorney or judge myself)
hi. i'm not sure about this debate thing and infj's though. from all the stuff you've written in your site, i am pretty sure i am an INFJ. i can't help directing people and i just love telling them what they should change about themselves. (see? i'm assuming i know what's best.)
i used to not like debating when i was painfully shy, but now that i've stepped out a little i find that i enjoy them. the kind of 'debate' i'm talking about, by the way, are not the formal ones but the discussion-types where i can get so worked up that i pretty much do everything to prove i am...or could be... right. and my other friends sometimes think i'm trying to get into a fight. lol or is that typically INFJ? i do 'debate' rather logically though. i'd love to get your insight on this. thaanks!
Hmmm.... I'm suspecting there's "debating," and there's "soapboxing."
For me, "debating" is something they teach in schools -- they have debate squads and all that jazz. And "debate" is something that lawyers and politicians are usually well versed in. Imagine a courtroom drama, or perhaps the televised election debates we Americans feature. Can you imagine yourself faring well in either of those contexts? (I can't imagine myself faring well.)
Now when I drag my soapbox out, I often sing to the choir. I typically don't feel anybody is dead-set against what I'm stridently arguing for and presenting coherent counter-arguments. If I were required to present compelling evidence and data to support my view, I'd probably be lost.
In my case, I either
a) have sunk my teeth into one particular principle and am making hay with it; or
b) I am so extremely obviously in the right that you would be a fool to oppose me. Such as, I am arguing on behalf of gravity. Now,
c) it's possible that (a) and (b) are the same statement said two different ways, yet I'm so lousy at debating that even I am not certain.
Does this clarify matters any for you?
yes, that did clarify things a bit. i've never tried formal debating before but...i agree, i'd probably freeze up. it's like i KNOW how to defend my views, but i can't actually put them into words in a span of one minute.
thank you for clarifying this bit to me. (i knew it! i'm an infj through and through.) btw, i love your 'infj or infp' site. great job on that.
I'm an INFJ, married to an INFP. I laugh about how true some of the pages on your site are--when I read something, I'll identify with the INFJ perspective, and I'll go down and ask my husband, and he'll give me whatever the INFP response on the site is. This one definitely applies. My husband is getting a PhD in rhetoric, and he used to be involved in Forensics and such when he was younger. My INTJ sister and INTJ father are both lawyers. Me, I can't stand debating. People twist my words and it messes with my mind, so I try to avoid it unless, as above, I'm talking to people I know well. So I picked a profession (pharmacy) where people actually want to listen to what I have to say. Heh. (Okay, that's not why I picked it, but I certainly do better in an environment where I don't have to fight people to get them to hear what I say.)
If the person I'm talking to is already set in an opinion opposed to mine, I would rather just walk right out than stay and slog and argue. Sometimes if someone expresses an opinion that I think is immoral, I feel like I have to convince them not to be evil, but the effort of coming up with a coherent argument is enough to make me cry. (I find that crying is more effective than logical persuasion anyway :-P)
I am much more in my element when I am called on to instruct or answer questions, especially when it means I get to talk about myself.
-INFJ
Really great point about Te being aspirational for INFPs and about how Myers herself showed that gaining proficiency with this process is indeed possible. This is very true of me. For whatever reason, I find myself pushing toward the ESTJ "business suit" as some have called it. I would not say that I am yet adept, but I do know that I am able to be so with sufficient amounts of concentration.
It's almost as if I take Fi and Ne for granted. They will always be available in abundance. Te is the challenge in the quest for personal growth. I think that if a person has matured enough in their higher order processes, that they will naturally move toward the latter ones and the next step in maturation.
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