Monday, August 21, 2006

Archetype

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18 Comments:

Blogger Bill said...

I am trying to get a handle on what you mean by this. Are you saying INFJ sees the archetype in others and INFP feels it in themselves?

September 08, 2006  
Blogger Vicky Jo said...

Nope.

I'm saying that when the INFP goes "within" and connects with the archetype (the inner world), they are feeling the archetype to grapple with understanding it. When the INFJ goes "within" and connects with the archetype (the inner world), they are seeing the archetype to grapple with understanding it.

Encounters with both archetypal forms are extremely difficult to articulate.

September 08, 2006  
Blogger Bill said...

I'm sure you're meaning would be perfectly clear to another INFJ, but I wish to understand. By seeing the archetype to you mean via symbolic imagery, or perhaps inner knowing?

October 05, 2006  
Blogger Vicky Jo said...

I don't know that it would be any clearer to another INFJ... As I understand it from Dr. Beebe, Ni is an imagistic process. I tend to think of it in terms of guided imagery. Beebe calls it "scenario thinking." So when an INFJ connects with archetypal "knowing," there are images associated with that. In contrast, apparently introverted Feeling is "feeling" its way around the archetype, more like a blind person climbing over a snowdrift in the dark, feeling their way carefully.

Zat help any?

October 05, 2006  
Blogger Bill said...

I don't know that it would be any clearer to another INFJ...

I assumed that because I knew instantly what you meant by INFP feels the Archetype.

I tend to think of it in terms of guided imagery. Beebe calls it "scenario thinking."

"Scenario thinking" isn't helpful yet, but I often experience what I would call "Guiding imagery". I call it flash image where there will be some image that is symbolic usually of something that is currently happening, but on rarely is symbolizes a future event. Like there was a lady on a mail list that I would get a feeling and an image every time I read one of her posts. I didn't feel her vibe when I read her words. It was like the feel of a vacant house. And I would see this white highly polished shiny shield supperimposed over the words of her posts in my mind's eye at the same time. I found out later when the subject came up, that this list member (an ENFP) utilizes a light shield to block people's feelings from impacting her.

Sometimes I would sware I read peoples' minds. I'm not meaning to, it just happens. Like once I was sitting in my car in the company parking lot, and I was watching a co-worker walking toward a particular area of the parking lot. And it puzzled me because I knew he owned a little red two seater sports car, he had given me a ride home in it once, but that car wasn't in the area he was walking toward. I thought to myself, "I wonder what car he's going to." and I instantly got a mental image of a white box on wheels, and moments later the co-worker opened the door to a white VW van, got in the driver's seat and drove away.

October 06, 2006  
Blogger Vicky Jo said...

Bill...

The "read people's minds" thing seems to me to be partly an Idealist ability, and partly about Ne, if I follow Beebe correctly.

What's interesting is that Ni is in the Witch/Senex archetype for the INFP pattern, so I have noticed resistance to their wanting to use it, and then when it is used, it seems to imagine a negative future, and rains on sunny dreams.

You write, I knew instantly what you meant by INFP feels the Archetype. I'd like to know more about that!

October 06, 2006  
Blogger Bill said...

You write, I knew instantly what you meant by INFP feels the Archetype. I'd like to know more about that!

Well let me proceed slowly. I seem to be good and discovering that what I think you talking about is not what you want. You said "...when an INFJ connects with archetypal "knowing," there are images associated with that." Well when I connect with archetypal "knowing" there are feelings associated that that. Actually there are feelings associated with many things. I call it feeling nomenclature. Like the first time I saw a 12 inch long play record, there was a feeling that got associated with that memory, and I feel that feeling when I remember that. It's as if that feeling functions like a label. Every person has a unique feel to them, and I learn to recognize people by their feel. When I feel people are thinking about me, I recognize who it is by that feel of their label. On some occasions, a person's feel label has color associated with it like I see butterscotch in my mind's eye when I read a certain person's email, or when that person is reading something I wrote. And I have no clue how to go about describing what someone's feel label feels like.

Inner knowing of future events manifest as feeling. They call these things premonition. Once a friend who worked on our helpdesk applied for a promotion, and I had a feeling she would be the one selected to get the promotion. So to be certain, I prayed about it, and praying made the feeling even stronger, I started kind of teasing her about it. Every time I saw her I told her that she better start cleaning out her desk, because she is going to be asked to move into that office over there in a couple of weeks, and she would just laugh it off, until the day they told her she got the promotion.

Is that the kind of thing you were looking for?

October 09, 2006  
Blogger Vicky Jo said...

Bill -

I guess it's the "kind" of thing I'm looking for, but I'm sorta surprised by it. It doesn't appear to match what John Beebe got me to think it would.

My sense is that heroic introverted Feeling shows up when something is "wrong," and goes to work on "feeling" where the value(s) went awry. He claims Fi is a "worrying function," and that it is perpetually feeling around to see the "shape" of the value.

Does that spark anything for you?

October 10, 2006  
Anonymous Bill said...

Maybe it is a worry function for some, but I look at worry as the opposite of faith, and faith is required for my intuitive abilities to function.

My sense is that heroic introverted Feeling shows up when something is "wrong," and goes to work on "feeling" where the value(s) went awry.

The desire of my heart is to find ways to enable others to accomplish the desire of their's.

October 10, 2006  
Blogger Vicky Jo said...

I want to be careful not to misinterpret Beebe's comments, but it shows up for me that perhaps you've been conditioned to think worry is "bad"? Further, the term "worry" might be more like when you have a piece of playdough in your hand and you "worry" it, which is like massaging it repeatedly. So you're "worrying" it.

I know what you mean about worry being based in "fear," but I don't get that that is the kind of "worry" Beebe was talking about. :-/

You write, The desire of my heart is to find ways to enable others to accomplish the desire of their's.

...and I have to tell you that I have an allergic reaction to that. A lot of negative energy shows up for me, and this is the "yucky" thing I keep pointing at.

IF this is your life purpose statement, it feels to me like it is beneath you. Have you read anything about codependence? Because this is the kind of misguided belief many codependents hold that make their life miserable. I'm sure any Melody Beattie book would talk about this.

I also have a bad reaction somewhat because I recognize this in myself, and can testify to what a miserable failure such a goal can be.

I remember reading in codependent literature somewhere once about how a goal like this comes between you and your relationship with God. And since I know you have an active spiritual life, I wonder if this is something you might want to understand.

Regardless, I have to tell you that I simply cannot feel good about this statement. I'm downright allergic to it.

So where do we go from here?

October 10, 2006  
Blogger Vicky Jo said...

I'm noticing this sounds a lot like an example from Byron Katie's most recent book: I Need Your Love - Is It True? She talks about how we bend our likes and dislikes to meet the approval of others.

A Make Believe Scenario with Golden Retrievers

Here's the setup: Imagine that you're not a big dog fan. Your friend's dogs have been playing in the sprinklers and they're all wet. He wants to bring the dogs with him to the park.

So you're all getting ready to pile into the car when his wife comes out and takes the front seat. That leaves you with the dogs in the back. He asks you, "Are you sure it's okay?"

The answer that comes up for you inside is, "No, it's not okay."

Okay so let's pause there. Notice that it's not an angry thought. It doesn't feel mean. It's just a clear thought. It's an honest "no." You don't want to ride in the back with the wet dogs. Simple.

What often happens next, though, is that we step out of integrity by arguing with that clear, kind answer because we think it's not an okay answer. So instead of voicing the honest "no," we say something like, "Oh sure, it's okay. I don't mind."

That's where the pain comes from.

We've just argued with the reality - which is that it's not really okay with me.

I'm just saying that because I want you to see me as a certain kind of person (flexible, accommodating, humble) and I want you to approve of me.

And because we've stepped out of our integrity, we'll continue to feel the stressful effects of it until we get back in alignment with ourselves.

If you have trouble staying in integrity with your honest no, here are some false beliefs you might like to investigate...

• I need them to like me.
• If I say no they'll be angry with me.
• Saying no is rude.
• Nice people always go along with everything.
• It's not that big of a deal.
• I have to do what they say.

Question the thoughts like the ones in the list above, or others that keep you from being able to say no and be in integrity.

October 11, 2006  
Blogger Bill said...

I guess a more accurate statement would have been, "A desire of my heart...". No it's not the primary. I enjoy meeting people's needs if I can and they want it. Woopy do. Something any person would do for a friend.

October 11, 2006  
Blogger Vicky Jo said...

But I think this is where that yucky feeling comes from. Are you willing to look there? I get a yucky sensation around this topic, and I think it's the source of something that isn't serving you.

October 11, 2006  
Blogger Bill said...

Yes I'm willing to look there, but at the moment I am starting to feel like saying to me, "Just forget about everthing you think you know about yourself and just go with the flow."

October 12, 2006  
Blogger Vicky Jo said...

Bill -

I appreciate where you're coming from. After all, you've been under the magnifying glass a lot recently.

What I don't know is whether that energy is you taking care of yourself, or whether that's "resistance" showing up saying, "I don't want to look there, because then I might have to change the way I do business."

Only you know which one it is. Only you know what serves you best overall.

Take care of yourself.

October 12, 2006  
Blogger Bill said...

The voice of the feeling is saying, "Stop trying to know, and just go be."

October 13, 2006  
Blogger Vicky Jo said...

What I know is that we have lots of voices within us. So as you feel into that voice, does it have your best interests at heart? Or is it a voice from your comfort zone griping about any change in the status quo?

October 13, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i love how you say that you have to sit with this wisdom for a long time before it reveals itself. that is so infj ;)

March 15, 2011  

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